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quality posts: 16 Private Messages WootBot

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Healdsburg Ranches Cabernet (12)

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Last Purchase:
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Cesare


quality posts: 2213 Private Messages Cesare

Healdsburg Ranches 2008 Sonoma County Cabernet Sauvignon - Case
$105.99 (Normally $132.00) 20% off List Price
2008 Healdsburg Ranches Sonoma Cabernet Sauvignon
CT link above

Winery website
™ © ®

-il Cesare
Sole Absolute Triple
Exalted High Tastemaster Supreme
“In the entire world there are only a few sounds that bring joy to all but the most jaded. One is the murmur of a kitten purring. Another is the thwack of a well-pitched baseball hitting a perfectly swung bat. And the third is the pop of a cork being pulled from a bottle of wine.” —George Taber

Darksoul13


quality posts: 12 Private Messages Darksoul13

How does a Twist cap vs cork affect the overall taste and aroma of the wine?

Silly Rabbit......

kylemittskus


quality posts: 249 Private Messages kylemittskus
Darksoul13 wrote:How does a Twist cap vs cork affect the overall taste and aroma of the wine?



Screw top closure study.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

MarkDaSpark


quality posts: 223 Private Messages MarkDaSpark
Darksoul13 wrote:How does a Twist cap vs cork affect the overall taste and aroma of the wine?



Doesn't really affect them when it's a new wine.

However, the effect of screw cap over the long term aging isn't known yet, IIRC.

On the other hand, there's something about popping a cork that's more romantic.


Edit: Of course, it's a lot easier to open a screw top, unless you use a corkscrew.

Because no Wineaux would ever do something like that!

x19

Someone has to put WD's kids thru college, but why does it have to be me!
*This post is for purposes of enabling only, and does not constitute any promise of helping pay for said enabling. It does indicate willingness to assist in drinking said wine.

MarkDaSpark


quality posts: 223 Private Messages MarkDaSpark




Courtesy of CJ:

cjsiege wrote:Looks like the Dallas folks are trying to get some traction. See the Helping Hands section below.

List of previous WW gatherings by area. Great reading and great examples of how to set up a Get-Together Thread.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Upcoming Woot Wine Gatherings…All The News for the week of July 8th.

July
7/21: SoCal #20: Pre-RPM tour Get-Together with ddeuddeg & Bahwm
7/23-25: RPM's History Tour, Part 1
7/25-29: RPM's History Tour, Part 2

(Dates set. There is room on both tours for more people!)
TBD: NorCal #13: Wheelbarrow o' Wine

August
8/18: CyberPub Cellars at the Awards Dinner!

Pending
TBD: NorCal #12: Volcanic Terroir and/or Eastern European Finds
TBD: Arizona Verde Valley Winery Weekend
TBD: Dallas #11


No events in your area??? Start one! Create an interest thread in the World of Wine Woot Community Tab!




So join or create a WW Gathering!

x19

Someone has to put WD's kids thru college, but why does it have to be me!
*This post is for purposes of enabling only, and does not constitute any promise of helping pay for said enabling. It does indicate willingness to assist in drinking said wine.

dmallette


quality posts: 2 Private Messages dmallette

Anyone have any info on this wine? The pricing is nice, but are you getting what you pay for, so to speak? Any insight is appreciated!

irenegade


quality posts: 2 Private Messages irenegade
dmallette wrote:Anyone have any info on this wine? The pricing is nice, but are you getting what you pay for, so to speak? Any insight is appreciated!



Here's a couple of short reviews. doesn't sound very complex, perhaps just a bbq quaff or chug. I couldn't find any details other than 2000 cases were made from juice sourced from several vineyards and released in early 2011. I can't verify whether the vineyards were all from Heraldsburg or not. Perhaps the wine makers will chime in.

http://buyingguide.winemag.com/catalog/healdsburg-ranches-2008-cabernet-sauvignon-sonoma-county

http://www.cellartracker.com/wine.asp?iWine=960818

http://sassywinebelly.blogspot.com/2011/02/healdsburg-ranches-cabernet-sauvignon.html

here's a review from a supermaket's selling sheet:

http://timessupermarkets.com/pdf/Fujioka-Newsjanuary2011.pdf

stella1122


quality posts: 1 Private Messages stella1122
dmallette wrote:Anyone have any info on this wine? The pricing is nice, but are you getting what you pay for, so to speak? Any insight is appreciated!



I bought the Zin from this winery when it was offered a couple of months ago. I enjoyed that a lot and liked the screw cap for picnics, out on the boat, etc. I like Cabs and Healdsburg produces some nice wine, but I have not tried this one. The Zin was not complex, but a nice everyday drinker with a good finish. I'm hoping someone can offer notes about the Cab.

rpm


quality posts: 204 Private Messages rpm

$11/bottle 'list', $8.80 on woot

You have to ask yourself why this wine exists, other than the grapes (or the bulk wine) were available cheap (2008 was not a good year) and someone blended it into something salable.

I love Cabernet Sauvignon, and some very good Cabernet grapes are grown in the Healdsburg and upper Sonoma Country area, though the climate there tends to be warmer than in the main Cabernet regions of the Napa Valley.

The most you can expect from an $11 (8.80 woot) Cabernet is 'sound commercial wine'. If you particularly like the Cabernet grape and you don't have any greater expectation, think about this.

However, you should understand that Cabernet Sauvignon is usually the most expensive grape varietal in California and great Cabernet and good Cabernet, heck, even decent Cabernet, is going to be more expensive, relative to quality, than other varietals, simply because the fruit is more expensive. And if the fruit is not expensive, then it's likely that its from lesser vineyards, in an off year, or from younger vines (just coming into production) or a combination of two or more of the above.

Moreover, the reason Cabernet is expensive is that it is capable, with fine fruit in the hands of a skillful winemaker, of making a wine of great complexity with the ability to age for a generation or more. Wines with screw caps do not age (a decade or so ago a 1934 French Colombard made at UC Davis and bottled with a crown seal was opened and tasted as fresh as when it was bottled).

For my money, when I'm looking at less expensive wines, I tend to look for less expensive varietals and even blends of the sort that used to go into generics, because skillful winemakers can get relatively better fruit for the same price and, by blending varietals with different characteristics, can assemble a better wine than any of the constituent varietals going into the blend would be by themselves.

Caveat emptor

Wine-tasting in 8 words:
Pull lots of corks!
Remember what you taste!

dah7m


quality posts: 9 Private Messages dah7m

Wines with screw caps do not age (a decade or so ago a 1934 French Colombard made at UC Davis and bottled with a crown seal was opened and tasted as fresh as when it was bottled).

Agree with pretty much your entire assessment here except for the above statement. I think most people would say that the jury is most definitely still out re: screwcaps and ageability.
See: http://www.winespectator.com/webfeature/show/id/46971
Now that said, I'm sure you're right that this wine was not made for aging, so the "debate" is neither here nor there!

rpm


quality posts: 204 Private Messages rpm
dah7m wrote: Wines with screw caps do not age (a decade or so ago a 1934 French Colombard made at UC Davis and bottled with a crown seal was opened and tasted as fresh as when it was bottled).

Agree with pretty much your entire assessment here except for the above statement. I think most people would say that the jury is most definitely still out re: screwcaps and ageability.
See: http://www.winespectator.com/webfeature/show/id/46971
Now that said, I'm sure you're right that this wine was not made for aging, so the "debate" is neither here nor there!



While I'm willing to consider the results of any such study (and it would require a number of replication studies before I would consider it 'scientifically' valid), I remain unconvinced. Note also it's a white wine in the study, one that one does not typically age or, even if one does, expect to gain significantly from the process.

No winemaker should risk wines meant for serious aging: top quality Cabernet and Syrah (Hermitage), properly structured are capable of going 50 years and more, Pinot can go 30 or more, and sweet dessert wines (Port, beeren and trockenbeeren ausleses, 6-5 putts Tokaj, etc) can go centuries.

Wine-tasting in 8 words:
Pull lots of corks!
Remember what you taste!

losthighwayz


quality posts: 77 Private Messages losthighwayz

I think I have been redirected to Lot 18.

"The older I get the better I was"

hiten900


quality posts: 10 Private Messages hiten900
dah7m wrote: Wines with screw caps do not age (a decade or so ago a 1934 French Colombard made at UC Davis and bottled with a crown seal was opened and tasted as fresh as when it was bottled).

Agree with pretty much your entire assessment here except for the above statement. I think most people would say that the jury is most definitely still out re: screwcaps and ageability.
See: http://www.winespectator.com/webfeature/show/id/46971
Now that said, I'm sure you're right that this wine was not made for aging, so the "debate" is neither here nor there!



I understand that wine in screw caps don't age. However, does wine go past it's drinking window in Screw caps?

For example, I have a 2005 Boudreaux that is definitely past its drinking age - very flat and brownish in color. Other bottles I opened a year ago were deep red and great taste. If this was in a screw cap, would the drinking window be preserved?

rpm


quality posts: 204 Private Messages rpm
hiten900 wrote:I understand that wine in screw caps don't age. However, does wine go past it's drinking window in Screw caps?

For example, I have a 2005 Boudreaux that is definitely past its drinking age - very flat and brownish in color. Other bottles I opened a year ago were deep red and great taste. If this was in a screw cap, would the drinking window be preserved?



Well, 90% (or more) of the wine made in the world is meant to be drunk within a year or two of vintage/release.

You may simply have had a bad bottle, because typically wines in a screw cap don't age much (there is some argument that the right sort of screw caps will have enough air exchange to permit aging, pace dah7m, but the consensus is most wines won't.

A 2005 Bordeaux (I'm assuming that's what you mean....) should still be OK, at the quality level that is likely to have been put in a screw cap, but neither better nor worse than it was a year ago.

Remember, ANY wine sold in a screw cap container should be treated as if intended for immediate (within a few months) consumption unless the winery has explicitly made claims for age-worthiness (which I would take with a rather large grain of salt).

Wine-tasting in 8 words:
Pull lots of corks!
Remember what you taste!

dah7m


quality posts: 9 Private Messages dah7m
rpm wrote:Well, 90% (or more) of the wine made in the world is meant to be drunk within a year or two of vintage/release.

You may simply have had a bad bottle, because typically wines in a screw cap don't age much (there is some argument that the right sort of screw caps will have enough air exchange to permit aging, pace dah7m, but the consensus is most wines won't.

A 2005 Bordeaux (I'm assuming that's what you mean....) should still be OK, at the quality level that is likely to have been put in a screw cap, but neither better nor worse than it was a year ago.

Remember, ANY wine sold in a screw cap container should be treated as if intended for immediate (within a few months) consumption unless the winery has explicitly made claims for age-worthiness (which I would take with a rather large grain of salt).



I don't have a dog in the fight, although I do think you will start to see a lot of vintners moving toward screwcap. Benton-Lane, which I think most people would say is a highly respected Oregon pinot maker, recently made the switch to all screwcap. Like you said, you take their "studies" with a grain of salt, but this is from their FAQ on why they made the switch:
The prevailing wisdom in the wine world has always been that the aging process
of red wines in bottle was a process of slow oxidation. However, recent studies
have proven conclusively that oxygen is not a vital component for the ongoing
evolution and maturation of red wines in bottle. Red wine will continue to evolve
through reactions that do not require air. In reality, the best corks are those that
allow the least amount of air into a bottle. Additionally, the practice of dipping
the neck of a bottle of age-worthy red wine in wax aims to exclude air from
entering the bottle as much as possible. Screw caps provide a reliable, nearly
airtight seal every time. Wine will age more slowly under screw caps than under
cork, looking like wine that has been aged in a very cold cellar. This ability to
maintain the vibrancy and freshness of a wine for longer in bottle is absolutely
perfect for Pinot Noir.

Meanwhile, has anyone had this wine?

neilfindswine


quality posts: 174 Private Messages neilfindswine

Guest Blogger

Shill report: I've had this wine. I put it in the same category as the Toolbox Merlot- a fine, pleasant, everyday drinker. Many cabs available at this price point are very un-pleasant. A good bottle for Monday night burgers & pizza.

I report to winedavid39...

tercerowines


quality posts: 36 Private Messages tercerowines
rpm wrote:Well, 90% (or more) of the wine made in the world is meant to be drunk within a year or two of vintage/release.

You may simply have had a bad bottle, because typically wines in a screw cap don't age much (there is some argument that the right sort of screw caps will have enough air exchange to permit aging, pace dah7m, but the consensus is most wines won't.

A 2005 Bordeaux (I'm assuming that's what you mean....) should still be OK, at the quality level that is likely to have been put in a screw cap, but neither better nor worse than it was a year ago.

Remember, ANY wine sold in a screw cap container should be treated as if intended for immediate (within a few months) consumption unless the winery has explicitly made claims for age-worthiness (which I would take with a rather large grain of salt).



Have to jump in here and disagree with RPM re: ageability of wines under screw cap. More and more producers are moving towards screw caps, not only for 'short term drinker's but for those that need to be laid down. For instance, Plumpjack has been bottling their Reserve Cab under both screw cap and natural cork since the 1997 vintage, and the screwcap one sells out faster than the non-screwcap one! And many of the greatest wines from Australia are now bottled under screwcap for nearly the entire world - except the US in some cases, and that is due to perception, not quality.

One other comment re: the Bennett Lane quote - it is true that wines under the best corks have very little oxygen getting in . . . but it is NOT true that screwcaps prevent oxygen from getting in. Different liners under the cap allow for different amounts of oxygen to get in - those lined with SaraTin will allow very small amounts as the bottle ages; those lined with SaraNex will allow more . . .

Just my $.02 . . . .

Cheers!

Larry Schaffer
tercero wines
www.tercerowines.com
larry@tercerowines.com

rpm


quality posts: 204 Private Messages rpm
tercerowines wrote:Have to jump in here and disagree with RPM re: ageability of wines under screw cap. More and more producers are moving towards screw caps, not only for 'short term drinker's but for those that need to be laid down. For instance, Plumpjack has been bottling their Reserve Cab under both screw cap and natural cork since the 1997 vintage, and the screwcap one sells out faster than the non-screwcap one! And many of the greatest wines from Australia are now bottled under screwcap for nearly the entire world - except the US in some cases, and that is due to perception, not quality.

One other comment re: the Bennett Lane quote - it is true that wines under the best corks have very little oxygen getting in . . . but it is NOT true that screwcaps prevent oxygen from getting in. Different liners under the cap allow for different amounts of oxygen to get in - those lined with SaraTin will allow very small amounts as the bottle ages; those lined with SaraNex will allow more . . .

Just my $.02 . . . .

Cheers!



Frankly, I think the jury is out on screw caps, at best. I would certainly not put my money into any age-worthy wine in a screw cap. A choice, perhaps, but I will go with what has worked well for several hundred years here.

Certainly, more and more producers are using screw caps, but it's also true that less and less wine is made in an age-worthy style -- the currently popular high alcohol, high pH, overripe fruit red wines are unlikely to age well regardless of what sort of closure is used.

There is nothing wrong with wine intended purely as a commercial product -- our family has certainly made enough of it over the past century and more -- but I take the decision to use screw caps as an indication that a house does not aspire to make truly great wine of the sort that requires a decade or more of aging.

It's a matter of preference, no doubt, but my palate was trained on traditionally-structured Cabs and Cab blends made for the long hall. My 'sweet spot' for Cabernet is probably 20 for first class wines (25+ in great years) and 10-15 for good ones. But, I've been drinking Cab for a long, long time and my taste memory for California Cab includes most of the age-worthy vintages since the end of Prohibition, starting with the 1935 Simi.

Wine-tasting in 8 words:
Pull lots of corks!
Remember what you taste!

tercerowines


quality posts: 36 Private Messages tercerowines
rpm wrote:Frankly, I think the jury is out on screw caps, at best. I would certainly not put my money into any age-worthy wine in a screw cap. A choice, perhaps, but I will go with what has worked well for several hundred years here.

Certainly, more and more producers are using screw caps, but it's also true that less and less wine is made in an age-worthy style -- the currently popular high alcohol, high pH, overripe fruit red wines are unlikely to age well regardless of what sort of closure is used.

There is nothing wrong with wine intended purely as a commercial product -- our family has certainly made enough of it over the past century and more -- but I take the decision to use screw caps as an indication that a house does not aspire to make truly great wine of the sort that requires a decade or more of aging.

It's a matter of preference, no doubt, but my palate was trained on traditionally-structured Cabs and Cab blends made for the long hall. My 'sweet spot' for Cabernet is probably 20 for first class wines (25+ in great years) and 10-15 for good ones. But, I've been drinking Cab for a long, long time and my taste memory for California Cab includes most of the age-worthy vintages since the end of Prohibition, starting with the 1935 Simi.



Interesting . . . so you are implying that any winery that bottles their reds under screwcap should be viewed

as an indication that a house does not aspire to make truly great wine of the sort that requires a decade or more of aging.

I know this is your opinion and your preference, but unfortunately, there are many that believe this to be a fact that that is simply to true.

Talk to Aussie producers, and not just those making super ripe shirazes . . . or pretty much all New Zealand Winemakers . . . or Plumpjack, as I said before.

I think time will tell - and I just hope everyone keeps an open mind about the process . . .

Cheers!

Larry Schaffer
tercero wines
www.tercerowines.com
larry@tercerowines.com

bhodilee


quality posts: 34 Private Messages bhodilee
MarkDaSpark wrote:Doesn't really affect them when it's a new wine.

However, the effect of screw cap over the long term aging isn't known yet, IIRC.

On the other hand, there's something about popping a cork that's more romantic.


Edit: Of course, it's a lot easier to open a screw top, unless you use a corkscrew.

Because no Wineaux would ever do something like that!



Are you making fun of me? I feel like you're making fun of me. Sometimes the caps look like foil...

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."

– George Bernard Shaw, author (1856-1950)

rpm


quality posts: 204 Private Messages rpm
tercerowines wrote:Interesting . . . so you are implying that any winery that bottles their reds under screwcap should be viewed

as an indication that a house does not aspire to make truly great wine of the sort that requires a decade or more of aging.

I know this is your opinion and your preference, but unfortunately, there are many that believe this to be a fact that that is simply to true.

Talk to Aussie producers, and not just those making super ripe shirazes . . . or pretty much all New Zealand Winemakers . . . or Plumpjack, as I said before.

I think time will tell - and I just hope everyone keeps an open mind about the process . . .

Cheers!



Well, it's a bit harsh, and, as I said, it's an indication - that is one factor perhaps among many....

I don't drink a lot of Australian wine, and my experience with it is limited, though long. I first encountered it in the mid-1970s when in the Army, I worked with an Australian exchange officer who loved good wine and had access to the best wines free or at cost through the diplomatic pouch. I drank lots of reds with him, including 6 or 7 vintages of Penfolds Grange Hermitage, which I regarded as the only great wine of the bunch. Many of them were very good in a sunny Rhonish sort of way, but little was great. And, later, in New York, I was at the private trade tasting when Wildman began importing Penfolds in 1982 or 83, where we tasted 9 or 10 vintages of the Grange Hermitage. I think the 1977 was the current release, but it was a very hard wine to sell because 1977 was so bad in both France and California. I'd be surprised if that wine is going into screw caps.

I haven't had a lot of top Australian wines since the early 90s, and most of the ones I've had did not blow me away. Good, and I'd drink them with pleasure, but not worth paying up for, or going out of my way.

My mind is open on the subject -- that is, I'd be willing to try a good Cab in a screw cap that someone has aged for 10-15 years and taste it fairly -- but my wallet isn't.

As you say, time will tell, and I will watch with interest from the sidelines.

Wine-tasting in 8 words:
Pull lots of corks!
Remember what you taste!

tercerowines


quality posts: 36 Private Messages tercerowines
rpm wrote:Well, it's a bit harsh, and, as I said, it's an indication - that is one factor perhaps among many....

I don't drink a lot of Australian wine, and my experience with it is limited, though long. I first encountered it in the mid-1970s when in the Army, I worked with an Australian exchange officer who loved good wine and had access to the best wines free or at cost through the diplomatic pouch. I drank lots of reds with him, including 6 or 7 vintages of Penfolds Grange Hermitage, which I regarded as the only great wine of the bunch. Many of them were very good in a sunny Rhonish sort of way, but little was great. And, later, in New York, I was at the private trade tasting when Wildman began importing Penfolds in 1982 or 83, where we tasted 9 or 10 vintages of the Grange Hermitage. I think the 1977 was the current release, but it was a very hard wine to sell because 1977 was so bad in both France and California. I'd be surprised if that wine is going into screw caps.

I haven't had a lot of top Australian wines since the early 90s, and most of the ones I've had did not blow me away. Good, and I'd drink them with pleasure, but not worth paying up for, or going out of my way.

My mind is open on the subject -- that is, I'd be willing to try a good Cab in a screw cap that someone has aged for 10-15 years and taste it fairly -- but my wallet isn't.

As you say, time will tell, and I will watch with interest from the sidelines.



Thanks for the reply - and thanks for 'playing' with me (-:

If you know anyone over at Plumpjack, you may want to contact them to see if you can get your hands on any of their late 90's cabs under both screwcap and cork. Of course, THAT is the real challenge - not to dismiss a wine stored under screwcap for a long time that is 'less than spectacular' unless you are able to try that same wine under cork as well to 'ensure' that the only difference was the closure . . .

I also know that they donated a 10 year vertical to UC Davis for analysis - I guess we'll see if they ever release the results and what they are.

And I just heard the Plumpjack also just donated a bunch of one of their Sauv Blancs to Davis under different closures for a long term study a la the groundbreaking AWRI one . . .

Let's keep in touch on this - and hopefully explore it side by side (-:

Cheers!

Larry Schaffer
tercero wines
www.tercerowines.com
larry@tercerowines.com

spdrcr05


quality posts: 30 Private Messages spdrcr05
rpm wrote:Well, it's a bit harsh, and, as I said, it's an indication - that is one factor perhaps among many....

I don't drink a lot of Australian wine, and my experience with it is limited, though long. I first encountered it in the mid-1970s when in the Army, I worked with an Australian exchange officer who loved good wine and had access to the best wines free or at cost through the diplomatic pouch. I drank lots of reds with him, including 6 or 7 vintages of Penfolds Grange Hermitage, which I regarded as the only great wine of the bunch. Many of them were very good in a sunny Rhonish sort of way, but little was great. And, later, in New York, I was at the private trade tasting when Wildman began importing Penfolds in 1982 or 83, where we tasted 9 or 10 vintages of the Grange Hermitage. I think the 1977 was the current release, but it was a very hard wine to sell because 1977 was so bad in both France and California. I'd be surprised if that wine is going into screw caps.

I haven't had a lot of top Australian wines since the early 90s, and most of the ones I've had did not blow me away. Good, and I'd drink them with pleasure, but not worth paying up for, or going out of my way.

My mind is open on the subject -- that is, I'd be willing to try a good Cab in a screw cap that someone has aged for 10-15 years and taste it fairly -- but my wallet isn't.

As you say, time will tell, and I will watch with interest from the sidelines.



My experience doesn't even come close to rpm's in depth but my opinion on this topic & drinking preferences for classicly made, built to age wines strongly parallel his. Just like him, I have an open mind and will objectively taste anything anybody wants to share, but for wines I mean to age (WD can I get me some Corison up in here?) I'm buying corks

In periods of profound change, the most dangerous thing is to incrementalize yourself into the future -- Thomas Edision

kylemittskus


quality posts: 249 Private Messages kylemittskus
spdrcr05 wrote:...but for wines I mean to age (WD can I get me some Corison up in here?) I'm buying corks



Why?

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

spdrcr05


quality posts: 30 Private Messages spdrcr05
kylemittskus wrote:Why?



Why Corison? Are you new here kyle? KIDDING!

Why corks? Several hundred years of research and proven performance, particularly with the varietals I enjoy the most. In absence of conflicting data, "we've always done it this way because we know it works" is the safer bet.

The closure study that was linked early in this thread is 1 data point and is not presented in what I would consider to be a scientifically valid format. All of the other reports in this thread are anecdotal at best.

I personally have some older Australians & some Cali Pinot with screw cap closures that I haven't gotten around to drinking yet (pretty sure we're buddied up CT.. if not "RossR"). Honestly this discussion has me curious... but as I don't have those same wines, identically stored with corks, it will just be my personal impressions.

In periods of profound change, the most dangerous thing is to incrementalize yourself into the future -- Thomas Edision

tercerowines


quality posts: 36 Private Messages tercerowines
spdrcr05 wrote:Why Corison? Are you new here kyle? KIDDING!

Why corks? Several hundred years of research and proven performance, particularly with the varietals I enjoy the most. In absence of conflicting data, "we've always done it this way because we know it works" is the safer bet.

The closure study that was linked early in this thread is 1 data point and is not presented in what I would consider to be a scientifically valid format. All of the other reports in this thread are anecdotal at best.

I personally have some older Australians & some Cali Pinot with screw cap closers that I haven't gotten around to drinking yet (pretty sure we're buddied up CT.. if not "RossR"). Honestly this discussion has me curious... but as I don't have those same wines, identically stored with corks, it will just be my personal impressions.



I'm curious as to what your personal level of sensitivity to TCA is, and what % of your bottles have been affected by TCA over the years? And how many may have had minute amounts so that things were just slightly muted?

Yes, corks have been used for centuries - and we. as consumers, have had to endure the 'russian roulette' that can oftentimes occur when opening wines laid down for a long time under cork.

I understand the 'intrigue' and 'romanticism' about opening wines stored for awhile under cork, but I ask my friends,who open expensive bottles and then give a sigh that the wine is not affected by TCA, if they give that same sigh when they turn their car on and it turns over.

We're dealing with a consumer product here, and I just can't comprehend selling a wine to a consumer, and having that wine ruined by a piece of cork. My reputation as a winemaker and winery owner is put at risk, and I need to 'make do' by refunding my customers that money, yet I have no recourse against the cork companies whatsoever.

That is, I would have those issues if I used corks . . .

Cheers.

Larry Schaffer
tercero wines
www.tercerowines.com
larry@tercerowines.com

kylemittskus


quality posts: 249 Private Messages kylemittskus

Fair enough. It seems that a lot of people seem to make the argument that you are: the known risk < unknown risk. The known, obviously being various microbial issues, failure of sealing, etc. The unknown risks seem to be more nebulous, which I suppose is assumed with the nature of an "unknown" risk. I am WAY more open to modernity in wine making than others (some here, some elsewhere) and I put screw tops in that camp. I am dying for more experiments and I would be completely open to reading and considering such research. I wonder how much people won't be, though, out of reasons of "why change if it works most of the time." Stupid Internet getting in the way of libraries and all. But that seems to be working out ok after all for all of us.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

spdrcr05


quality posts: 30 Private Messages spdrcr05
tercerowines wrote:I'm curious as to what your personal level of sensitivity to TCA is, and what % of your bottles have been affected by TCA over the years? And how many may have had minute amounts so that things were just slightly muted?

Yes, corks have been used for centuries - and we. as consumers, have had to endure the 'russian roulette' that can oftentimes occur when opening wines laid down for a long time under cork.

I understand the 'intrigue' and 'romanticism' about opening wines stored for awhile under cork, but I ask my friends,who open expensive bottles and then give a sigh that the wine is not affected by TCA, if they give that same sigh when they turn their car on and it turns over.

We're dealing with a consumer product here, and I just can't comprehend selling a wine to a consumer, and having that wine ruined by a piece of cork. My reputation as a winemaker and winery owner is put at risk, and I need to 'make do' by refunding my customers that money, yet I have no recourse against the cork companies whatsoever.

That is, I would have those issues if I used corks . . .

Cheers.



I have never opened a wine I've personally stored and had it be corked. Faded, yes, more than a few, but still a small number. Vinegar, yes, but just 2 or 3. Any issues I've had with wines has been when they were damaged in shipping, and then only by heat (and I have to say, Wine.woot is FANTASTIC in making these situations right.. thanks WD). I respect your decision, particularly considering the volume you deal with, and I understand why with a wine like this why you would do what you're doing.

My collection is modest .. approx 550 bottles (again RossR on CT.. lets buddy up.. I love seeing what others are buying and drinking). Of the wines that I have owned the longest I'm rigorous about keeping them on their sides and the corks wet.

On June 20th of this year, I opened a 1991 Spottswoode Estate Cabernet for my daughter's 21st Birthday. I've had this wine with me since release.. and I would not call it's early life "optimal storage". It has literally traveled the world with me making 2 transatlantic trips as I moved my, at the time much more modest, collection with me throughout my military career. It was quite simply delicious... and showed me once again why I buy wine I know I'm not going to drink for 10-15 years. I'll admit.. I was worried as I pulled the cork.. but a little due diligence and care paid off with a well aged wine that my daughter and I greatly enjoyed. I am eagerly anticipating drinking the 1993 Silver Oak Cabernet I have saved for daughter #2. It's storage life has been very similar to the Spottswoode, but I'm much less worried based on my most recent experience.

EDIT: I should add... I do have some experience with corked wines, so I do know what it smells and tastes like. But inevitably, when I inquire about those particular wines storage life, most of them spent a significant period of time upright allowing the corks to dry out.

In periods of profound change, the most dangerous thing is to incrementalize yourself into the future -- Thomas Edision

tytiger58


quality posts: 79 Private Messages tytiger58

Sadly I don't think screw tops will be accepted for another generation, until many more people have had experience with them. Even with experiments and tests the results can easily be picked apart by people who don't want to believe.

(I am not accusing anyone here of that)

A few months ago on another site an experiment for travel shock was done with a wine shipped 5 months before and another bottle opened upon arrival, the wine that just arrived was chosen as the clear winner for taste and balance. Slowly but surely the results were picked apart until the travel shock camp was sure the test was flawed or at least the results could not be taken seriously until many more variables could be tried.

I for one have been trying and buying many more screw top wines and have so far had no problems with them (other than I miss the pop)

But nothing ticks me off more than popping an older Barolo or Barbaresco etc that I have had in the cellar for 10+ years only to find that 1% TCA ruined my night!

What contemptible scoundrel stole the cork from my lunch? ~ W. C. Fields

“Freedom is something that dies unless it's used” Hunter S Thompson




spdrcr05


quality posts: 30 Private Messages spdrcr05
tytiger58 wrote:Sadly I don't think screw tops will be accepted for another generation, until many more people have had experience with them. Even with experiments and tests the results can easily be picked apart by people who don't want to believe.

(I am not accusing anyone here of that)

A few months ago on another site an experiment for travel shock was done with a wine shipped 5 months before and another bottle opened upon arrival, the wine that just arrived was chosen as the clear winner for taste and balance. Slowly but surely the results were picked apart until the travel shock camp was sure the test was flawed or at least the results could not be taken seriously until many more variables could be tried.

I for one have been trying and buying many more screw top wines and have so far had no problems with them (other than I miss the pop)

But nothing ticks me off more than popping an older Barolo or Barbaresco etc that I have had in the cellar for 10+ years only to find that 1% TCA ruined my night!



And my personal experience with travel shock is much different, particularly with Pinot Noir. But it's just that... my personal experience. And I would hardly call 2 bottles a statistically valid sample.

I'll also point out that buying and drinking quickly is the intention of screw caps, so all you're experiencing is confirmation bias.. talk to me about a screw cap wine you've had stored next to an identical or very similar cork closed bottle for 10-15 years.

YMMV .. which is one of the great reasons we all partake in this particular obsession. :D

In periods of profound change, the most dangerous thing is to incrementalize yourself into the future -- Thomas Edision

tytiger58


quality posts: 79 Private Messages tytiger58
spdrcr05 wrote:And my personal experience with travel shock is much different, particularly with Pinot Noir. But it's just that... my personal experience. And I would hardly call 2 bottles a statistically valid sample.

I'll also point out that buying and drinking quickly is the intention of screw caps, so all you're experiencing is confirmation bias.. talk to me about a screw cap wine you've had stored next to an identical or very similar cork closed bottle for 10-15 years.

YMMV .. which is one of the great reasons we all partake in this particular obsession. :D



I will let you know in 4 years, until then I will hold my breath with every older Barolo/Zin/and cab etc that I open.

What contemptible scoundrel stole the cork from my lunch? ~ W. C. Fields

“Freedom is something that dies unless it's used” Hunter S Thompson




spdrcr05


quality posts: 30 Private Messages spdrcr05
tytiger58 wrote:I will let you know in 4 years, until then I will hold my breath with every older Barolo/Zin/and cab etc that I open.



I'll be here ... and the nerves upon opening an older bottle affect us all, I'll bet WD & rpm agree with that

In periods of profound change, the most dangerous thing is to incrementalize yourself into the future -- Thomas Edision

North316


quality posts: 108 Private Messages North316
spdrcr05 wrote:I respect your decision, particularly considering the volume you deal with, and I understand why with a wine like this why you would do what you're doing.



I just wanted to clarify since your comment seemed to suggest that you did not realize this; Larry (Tercero Wines)did not make this wine being offered. While I would hate to offend the offering being made, the winery didn't bother to come participate today, so I won't worry about offending them.

Larry makes very good quality, age-worthy wines.

I don't have much to add to cork v. cap conversation, as I have only been drinking wine for about 2 years now. I, like Kyle, am very open to trying new things and have no set precognitions about which is better. I would happily late some screw caps for years to help do some future testing.

My CT
"Trust your homies on the net", Clark Smith.
R.I.P. Inkycatz - Feb. 2013

fredrinaldi


quality posts: 62 Private Messages fredrinaldi

I'm a Cab guy no doubt, but some thing about this offer I don't feel good about. Pass

spdrcr05


quality posts: 30 Private Messages spdrcr05
North316 wrote:I just wanted to clarify since your comment seemed to suggest that you did not realize this; Larry (Tercero Wines)did not make this wine being offered. While I would hate to offend the offering being made, the winery didn't bother to come participate today, so I won't worry about offending them.

Larry makes very good quality, age-worthy wines.

I don't have much to add to cork v. cap conversation, as I have only been drinking wine for about 2 years now. I, like Kyle, am very open to trying new things and have no set precognitions about which is better. I would happily late some screw caps for years to help do some future testing.



My apologies to Larry. Not being that interested in this particular offering, I just assumed. I probably don't need to finish that movie quote...

In periods of profound change, the most dangerous thing is to incrementalize yourself into the future -- Thomas Edision