MarkDaSpark


quality posts: 181 Private Messages MarkDaSpark

Or, Why isn't Wine.Woot shipping to my state anymore?


The first post about this ...

ddeuddeg wrote:Cross-posted from current offer thread:

(Start quoted posts)

user="ROGETRAY"
WCC is not currently shipping to NY due to some restrictions, but we should get further details sometime very soon.

Sorry for the inconvenience

user="canonizer"
Wow, I go away for a couple of months and you blacklist my state. Dagnabit. Any chance the regulations will be fixed today?

(end quoted posts)

Bet against any fix today. The last offer that shipped to NY was last Monday. Since then, nothing, and nobody will say why. I've seen nothing in the news about any changes, the Ship Compliant Blog to which the list of shipping states directs us says nothing about any changes. Either there have been regulation changes, or there haven't. If there have been changes, WCC knows about it, and knows what the changes are, but nobody will talk about it here. All you get today is some lame apology and a suggestion that there will be "further details soon." That's the first real reply since WD came on last Tuesday, telling us to stay tuned. After finding little on wine.woot that interested me for some time, they come up with at least 3 offers in the past 6 days that I'd place orders for without thinking twice, but no dice. I've had several offers to wootleg (ranging from a 4 hour drive to a 7 hour plane flight away), but I'm not about to prevail on my friends indefinitely, especially with no answers forthcoming. I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here, so I'll end my rant with a promise not to come back to this subject until I see something new and meaningful on the matter.




This was in the Aug. 19th CyberPub and in the KR PS offer thread as well.



Edit (updated 9/26/13):

As to why more states have dropped off the Ship To list:

I believe someone posted a logical speculation, i.e., that those states have a similar law/policy for their licensing authority to the NY ones. And until the NYSLA gets resolved, they will probably remain off the list.

I would also speculate that WD is working very hard to resolve this as quickly as possible. It's costing him $$$ after all.


Note that most of the posts in here are just speculation on our part (but probably pretty much accurate). Except for the whiners.


Quality Posts



Someone has to put WD's kids thru college, but why does it have to be me!
*This post is for purposes of enabling only, and does not constitute any promise of helping pay for said enabling. It does indicate willingness to assist in drinking said wine.

MarkDaSpark


quality posts: 181 Private Messages MarkDaSpark

Another post:

mother wrote:What are you referring to? I saw the 'Internet' stuff as a response to a request from ShipCompliant, but it specifically does not address the WCC direct from the winery model, just the Internet 3 tier model.

If someone needs a CT wootlegger, I'm also available of course.



Some info here. It is confusing, since it refers to "3rd Party Marketeers", which would seem to mean Wine.Woot partially. Point #2 seemed somewhat applicable to WW:

2. The ruling addressed only the “Three Tier” element of the proposed business model, and did not deal with “Producer Direct” orders that are shipped under winery DTC licenses via 3rd party marketers.



However, it sounds like there is still a sticking point on the NY side.

... a formal review of Third Party Marketing technology and systems that will likely result in an official advisory that provides guidelines for how licensees and Third Party Marketers may work together compliantly in the state.




So it may be that until the confusion is resolved by the NY commission, there may be no shipments to NY.


Someone has to put WD's kids thru college, but why does it have to be me!
*This post is for purposes of enabling only, and does not constitute any promise of helping pay for said enabling. It does indicate willingness to assist in drinking said wine.

MarkDaSpark


quality posts: 181 Private Messages MarkDaSpark

And more from ddeuddeg in response to above:

ddeuddeg wrote:This seems to address that more explicitly. Alas.



The link explains the ruling.


Someone has to put WD's kids thru college, but why does it have to be me!
*This post is for purposes of enabling only, and does not constitute any promise of helping pay for said enabling. It does indicate willingness to assist in drinking said wine.

MarkDaSpark


quality posts: 181 Private Messages MarkDaSpark

More:

mother wrote:That is indeed very bad news for some other online sites, but unless I'm missing something, that doesn't impact W.W/WCC at all- they do NOT use the 3 tier system, they facilitate the wineries own direct to consumer shipper's licenses...



True, but the wineries may not "control" the entire process since WW ships most of the wine thru their warehouse (WW gets orders, receives pallet of wine from Winery, re-boxes it into shipping containers, and ships using winery's license).

Sounded like NYSLA wants everything to go thru winery (selection, pricing, ordering, packaging, & shipping) "control".


So while WW isn't part of the 3-tier system, the lawyers may be afraid of some of the points involved, and don't want anyone getting fined or losing their license.


Someone has to put WD's kids thru college, but why does it have to be me!
*This post is for purposes of enabling only, and does not constitute any promise of helping pay for said enabling. It does indicate willingness to assist in drinking said wine.

MarkDaSpark


quality posts: 181 Private Messages MarkDaSpark

More from that CyberPub (well, all so far have been from there too!):

rjquillin wrote:Was this already posted?
Stuff like this doesn't, yet, directly affect Cali folks, but we feel for the NY group.

New York Should Bring Wine Consumers Into The Legal Mix
linky
This scenario played out again this week in New York, when the New York State Liquor Authority (NYSLA) held hearings on the issue “Internet Wine Sales”. In their announcement of the hearings they wrote the following:

“the purpose of [the hearing] will be to solicit industry input regarding the regulation of Internet sales.”




kylemittskus wrote:More on NY. Wine Library was given a cease and desist order. I wonder if WD got one, too.

http://www.drvino.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/mediaadvisiory082013-3.pdf



http://www.drvino.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/mediaadvisiory082013-3.pdf



cmaldoon wrote:Here is an interesting read that defines the root of the WW/NY issue:

Internet Advertising Platform
The company that got the question started was doing some shady business, essentially going around the NY state controls. In that case the advertizer was very definitely selling the wine.

Unfortunately that caused the control board to put some very broad guidelines out as to what one can't do and those guidelines may cross the WW business model as it currently stands. It is sad because I know that WD and folks aren't trying to get around the rules but this has to be hurting the bottom line. First VA now NY.

Yikes




Stay tuned ...


Someone has to put WD's kids thru college, but why does it have to be me!
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MarkDaSpark


quality posts: 181 Private Messages MarkDaSpark

A truly great post:

ddeuddeg wrote:Pending the outcome of all the legal wrangling that may or may not result in WCC being able to ship to NY in the foreseeable future, the NY SLA can't take away the memories: 3 rpm tours, 3 clambakes, 2 sip and sail tours, wine tastings in Chicago, Las Vegas, Detroit, NY City, Long Beach, NOTL, Finger Lakes, wine bottling expeditions in Las Vegas, wine dinners in Wooster, OH, 2 weddings this month, many great friendships that will last forever, plus an invaluable education in the world of wine, all of which we owe to wine.woot. (How's that for a run-on, bowtie?) We'll still be reading the blog, keeping up with what's offered, drinking down our already excessive inventory, finding ways to get our hands on the best of them. Meanwhile, bahwm and I owe Wine David a debt of gratitude we'll never be able to repay.





Someone has to put WD's kids thru college, but why does it have to be me!
*This post is for purposes of enabling only, and does not constitute any promise of helping pay for said enabling. It does indicate willingness to assist in drinking said wine.

MarkDaSpark


quality posts: 181 Private Messages MarkDaSpark
rjquillin wrote:full article
Wine Library vice president Brandon Warnke was unavailable for comment, but the NYSLA's letter is already making waves among the online wine retailer community. Online retailer Wine.Woot has changed its policy this week and is no longer shipping wine to New York. "Wine Library is a member of the National Association of Wine Retailers, so it's a concern for us. I'm concerned for our own store. I'm concerned for wine consumers in this country. This is not the direction we should be heading," Posner said. "We want to be opening up doors, not closing them."



Someone has to put WD's kids thru college, but why does it have to be me!
*This post is for purposes of enabling only, and does not constitute any promise of helping pay for said enabling. It does indicate willingness to assist in drinking said wine.

cjsiege


quality posts: 13 Private Messages cjsiege

Same situation in Virginia.

Itwdswafo


quality posts: 7 Private Messages Itwdswafo

Wow, thanks sparky!

So, like one of the above comments mentioned, is there anything that we the consumers can do?

rjquillin


quality posts: 174 Private Messages rjquillin
Itwdswafo wrote:Wow, thanks sparky!

So, like one of the above comments mentioned, is there anything that we the consumers can do?

Pitchforks, tar and feathers for your representatives comes to mind.
This is little more, imo, than another payoff to a lobby.

CT

ddeuddeg


quality posts: 29 Private Messages ddeuddeg
Itwdswafo wrote:Wow, thanks sparky!

So, like one of the above comments mentioned, is there anything that we the consumers can do?

Seems like there's not much. From time to time, I'll see articles in the local newspaper about the NYS Department of Taxation and Finance and/or the NYS Liquor Authority treating restaurants and other businesses in a such a cavalier manner that I get the impression both agencies operate almost as individual fiefdoms, and there is little apparent interest in the State Legislature to rein them in.

"Always keep a bottle of Champagne in the fridge for special occasions. Sometimes the special occasion is that you've got a bottle of Champagne in the fridge". - Hester Browne


Ddeuddeg's Cheesecake Cookbook

canonizer


quality posts: 22 Private Messages canonizer

Thanks for the thread. WD said NY the sky is falling...

Winedavid39 wrote:* very limited state list tonight.

No, it's not a mistake. You'll find that the regulatory environment remains in flux and constantly changing. We are purposely taking the high road by being conservative for now.

* stay tuned *

Sorry for the inconvenience. We are working hard to increase this list in the short term.



signed.

chipgreen


quality posts: 187 Private Messages chipgreen
canonizer wrote:Thanks for the thread. WD said NY the sky is falling...


I'd be interested to know how the NY situation ended up affecting half the country....

slm9951


quality posts: 14 Private Messages slm9951

Somerimes, I feel like I am alone in VA with my concerns. I started thinking that most Wooters in VA must live close to DC and could wootleg. I think NY must have many Wooters and not many choices for wootlegging. I am hoping that the country will take notice now that so many states are affected and something will happen to enable the third party shipping thing. Our state legislature has been very uninterested in my complaints.

MarkDaSpark


quality posts: 181 Private Messages MarkDaSpark
chipgreen wrote:I'd be interested to know how the NY situation ended up affecting half the country....



Actually, I think it started with Virginia, and then NY acted.

I suspect that most of it is some state distributors making waves with their state's licensing authority, and the mother ship is over-reacting to those threats.


Perhaps RPM or PS could shed some light.


Someone has to put WD's kids thru college, but why does it have to be me!
*This post is for purposes of enabling only, and does not constitute any promise of helping pay for said enabling. It does indicate willingness to assist in drinking said wine.

ddeuddeg


quality posts: 29 Private Messages ddeuddeg

Cross posted rom the current thread:

klezman wrote:This is complicated stuff. The briefest of summaries is this: for a winery to ship directly to you, they need a permit for each individual state that requires them. This is a distinct license from a retailer who wants to ship wine into the state (think Joe's Online Wine Emporium). Wine.woot operates as an intermediary between a winery and the consumer, and at no point owns the wine. They help the wineries connect to new customers and ship using the winery's own licenses. Recently some states have placed extra restrictions on "third party marketers", which may or may not accurately describe wine.woot, resulting in WD's decision to stay on the good side of all possible legal interpretations and his subsequent post in yesterday's thread about a severely reduced state list. Everybody is hoping it gets resolved soon, not the least is WD - this is his livelihood, after all.

*Note* I am not a lawyer, and this is my summary of my impression of the issues.

I'm not a lawyer, either, so maybe that's why this pretty much agrees with my impressions.
The thing I still can't fathom is why/how it is that a number of other companies, including one that got a clear cease and desist order from the NYSLA apparently continue to do business as usual. I've long been impressed with WD's willingness and ability to operate his business carefully and strictly within the laws of each state, using the producer direct model that it seems ought to continue to work. Meanwhile, some retailers, e.g., Wine Library and WTSO, using a scheme that the SLA has deemed in violation of NY State Law, continue to ship to consumers in NY.
Personally, I'm happy to have been doing business with an honest (and eminently likable) guy like WD. I'll continue to be patient until things get straightened out, and until then, when I can't resist an offer, I'll have another excuse to get together with my wootlegger buddies.

"Always keep a bottle of Champagne in the fridge for special occasions. Sometimes the special occasion is that you've got a bottle of Champagne in the fridge". - Hester Browne


Ddeuddeg's Cheesecake Cookbook

chipgreen


quality posts: 187 Private Messages chipgreen

Just got my biggest 1-day wine.woot delivery ever - 38 bottles in 6 boxes. Hoping it's not my last...

redwinefan


quality posts: 74 Private Messages redwinefan

Not sure if this is also related to the weirdness going on at Lot18. They are dropping a bunch of states on 9/15 with little explanation.

After badgering them on Twitter, they've come back with this:

Lot18: Unfortunately, the states removed do not permit out-of-state retailers to ship wine to its residents.
Lot18: It depends on the states in which those retailers are licensed and how they are structured. We reviewed this very carefully...
Lot18: ...and with our structure, TX law does not permit us to ship to the state's residents. Believe us, we wish that weren't the case.


I'm a bit confused why it was totally ok to ship to these states until 9/15. Nothing has changed in Texas AFAIK.

"You need to invest in a corkscrew. Wine is for drinking." -- Peter Wellington

chipgreen


quality posts: 187 Private Messages chipgreen

Crossposting from product thread;

slm9951 wrote:Do you have any idea if this even includes the situation in VA at this time as well?


The VA restrictions are a separate issue. They specifically passed a law requiring third party wine/alcohol merchants to register as an agricultural co-op. The requirements to be approved as such and/or the licensing fees involved are apparently too much to deal with and it doesn't look like wine.woot will ship to VA anytime in the near future.

The problem with the other recently blackballed states appears to stem from NY laws which were recently re-interpreted in such a way that prevents wine.woot from shipping to NY as part of the state's "three tier" system. Apparently, NY laws contain language similar to that of other states, which has caused temporary disruptions in service to those states as well.

That's my understanding of what's going on based on the little bit of information that's floating around.

noslensj


quality posts: 42 Private Messages noslensj
ddeuddeg wrote:Meanwhile, some retailers, e.g., Wine Library and WTSO, using a scheme that the SLA has deemed in violation of NY State Law, continue to ship to consumers in NY.


Regarding WTSO, it's been interesting to me that they don't charge me sales tax.

I've looked at the WA requirements to obtain a permit to ship wine into Washington, and it starts with obtaining a WA business license. After you have the business license, you can then complete the paperwork to obtain a license to ship wine into the state. But if you don't have a business license, you can't obtain the license.

Once a business license is issued, the entity is included in the databases for both collection of sales taxes and payment of excise taxes. Depending on business volume they need to either report (and remit) monthly or quarterly. Even if you have no business activity to report, you still have to file a report that says that you had no business. If you fail to report, you start getting nastygrams, and at some point there is presumably some type of followup.

Bottom line is that if WTSO is selling and shipping to me in WA and not collecting sales tax from me on the purchase, there are three potential explanations that come to mind immediately:

  • they haven't registered and are shipping wine to me illegally
  • they have registered but aren't accurately reporting sales amd remitting taxes
  • They are simply wrapping all sales taxes into the pricing.

North316


quality posts: 107 Private Messages North316
noslensj wrote:
  • They are simply wrapping all sales taxes into the pricing.
  • [/list]



    This

    My CT
    "Trust your homies on the net", Clark Smith.
    R.I.P. Inkycatz - Feb. 2013

    MarkDaSpark


    quality posts: 181 Private Messages MarkDaSpark
    chipgreen wrote:Crossposting from product thread;


    The VA restrictions are a separate issue. They specifically passed a law requiring third party wine/alcohol merchants to register as an agricultural co-op. The requirements to be approved as such and/or the licensing fees involved are apparently too much to deal with and it doesn't look like wine.woot will ship to VA anytime in the near future.

    The problem with the other recently blackballed states appears to stem from NY laws which were recently re-interpreted in such a way that prevents wine.woot from shipping to NY as part of the state's "three tier" system. Apparently, NY laws contain language similar to that of other states, which has caused temporary disruptions in service to those states as well.

    That's my understanding of what's going on based on the little bit of information that's floating around.



    I believe you have summarized everything correctly.

    "Congratulations. You get a cookie."


    Someone has to put WD's kids thru college, but why does it have to be me!
    *This post is for purposes of enabling only, and does not constitute any promise of helping pay for said enabling. It does indicate willingness to assist in drinking said wine.

    chipgreen


    quality posts: 187 Private Messages chipgreen
    MarkDaSpark wrote:I believe you have summarized everything correctly.

    "Congratulations. You get a cookie."


    noslensj


    quality posts: 42 Private Messages noslensj
    noslensj wrote:

    • They are simply wrapping all sales taxes into the pricing.
    North316 wrote:This


    That's what I presume as well. Technically, I'm supposed to know whether or not I'm being charged sales tax, because if I'm not being charged I'm responsible to pay it myself. Same as if I drive to Oregon to pick up components for a home theater system, thus evading my local sales tax (nearly 10%).

    coolchris160


    quality posts: 47 Private Messages coolchris160

    In Minnesota, I've rarely ever had issues ordering from wine.woot and now I'm beginning to feel what those in VA and NY have been experiencing. I never expected MN to have any issues like this and it really is disappointing. I'm glad WD is taking the necessary precautions to avoid any trouble. That is the last thing any of us would want I'm sure. It sucks not being able to order from WW though and I sincerely hope this whole situation gets resolved soon. Best of luck to WD and everyone else at WW.

    ddeuddeg


    quality posts: 29 Private Messages ddeuddeg

    It's a couple of weeks old now, but an interesting post on his wine blog by Tom Warks, specifically about the C&D issued by the NYSLA to WL.

    "Always keep a bottle of Champagne in the fridge for special occasions. Sometimes the special occasion is that you've got a bottle of Champagne in the fridge". - Hester Browne


    Ddeuddeg's Cheesecake Cookbook

    chipgreen


    quality posts: 187 Private Messages chipgreen
    ddeuddeg wrote:It's a couple of weeks old now, but an interesting post on his wine blog by Tom Warks, specifically about the C&D issued by the NYSLA to WL.


    Interesting article. Apparently it's not so much the sale of alcohol as it is the shipping that is a sticking point but only because that's the only place state regulators can grab a foothold to protect the good ole boys distribution network in NY to whom they are beholden.

    Found this in the comments below the article....

    GregT - August 29, 2013
    The last time the Supreme Ct spoke on the case, in Granholm v. Heald, they said:

    “This Court has long held that, in all but the narrowest circumstances, state laws violate the Commerce Clause if they mandate “differential treatment of in-state and out-of-state economic interests that benefits the former and burdens the latter.” ”

    In other words, the Court did not let the rights given to states by the 21st Amendment trump the Commerce Clause. In this case it’s retailers and not wineries, but the Court didn’t distinguish – it talked about economic interests w/out regard to the specifics

    They later said:

    “The Twenty-first Amendment’s aim was to allow States to maintain an effective and uniform system for controlling liquor by regulating its transportation, importation, and use. It did not give States the authority to pass nonuniform laws in order to discriminate against out-of-state goods, a privilege they never enjoyed. ”

    So this latest ploy is doomed and I hope the WL fights it. I will continue to patronize the WL, which is a great store.
    -------------------------

    Granholm v. Heald on Wiki.

    twstdvn


    quality posts: 72 Private Messages twstdvn

    As a winery owner & wine consumer - these state by state laws are just plain stupid.

    If you want to blame someone, BIG BEER is behind many of the restrictions still in place or is the pressure not to change.

    In California, we have Family Winemakers of California who is squarely behind the "Free the Grapes" debate and who spends it's dollars against these restrictions.

    On Soap Box...

    What's crazy as a winery owner - it's a felony for me to ship wine to a state like Utah who forbids it, even if the customer is a relative and called me up asking for me to ship them a few bottles!

    And yet there are many very dangerous things (restricted items for felons) that could be shipped from an online store to known felons in California without any recourse.

    How is this possible?

    Off Soap Box...

    chipgreen


    quality posts: 187 Private Messages chipgreen

    Hoping for an update... it appears that Iowa was added back onto the list of ship-to states about a week ago (albeit out of order, alphabetically speaking).

    ThunderThighs


    quality posts: 565 Private Messages ThunderThighs

    Staff

    chipgreen wrote:Hoping for an update... it appears that Iowa was added back onto the list of ship-to states about a week ago (albeit out of order, alphabetically speaking).

    We're working on the alphabetical sorting right now but some sales will be out of order for a bit. Alphabetizing is hard.

    Can't help with the rest though.



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    noslensj


    quality posts: 42 Private Messages noslensj
    twstdvn wrote:As a winery owner & wine consumer - these state by state laws are just plain stupid.

    If you want to blame someone, BIG BEER is behind many of the restrictions still in place or is the pressure not to change.

    In California, we have Family Winemakers of California who is squarely behind the "Free the Grapes" debate and who spends it's dollars against these restrictions.



    Perhaps a bit ironically, the interest that group that has the motivation and resources to tackle this situation is another big business - the discount retailers. In Washington, Costco took the lead to put the measure on the ballot that dismantled the state's prohibition-era monopoly in distribution of distilled spirits and that prohibited direct sales to retailers by producers.

    I presume that the existing arrangements in New York are creating added costs in the distribution channel that could be eliminated by allowing middle-man distributors to be bypassed. Perhaps Costco might be inclined at some point to push for an overhaul of the system in New York?

    rjquillin


    quality posts: 174 Private Messages rjquillin

    Just got a note that Lot18 Tasting Room is expanding their ship-to states, added:
    CT IA KS ME MA MI NC ND OH PA VT VA WV

    to existing states:
    CA CO DC FL ID LA MD NE NV NH NJ NM NY OR SC TN WI WY


    That's 31 states.
    How is it their model is so different?

    CT

    chipgreen


    quality posts: 187 Private Messages chipgreen
    rjquillin wrote:Just got a note that Lot18 Tasting Room is expanding their ship-to states, added:
    CT IA KS ME MA MI NC ND OH PA VT VA WV

    to existing states:
    CA CO DC FL ID LA MD NE NV NH NJ NM NY OR SC TN WI WY


    That's 31 states.
    How is it their model is so different?


    Those additional Lot18 ship-to states are mostly the same ones that WW stopped shipping to, so hopefully that is a good sign that they will get added back here soon.

    I have ordered from Lot18 in the past, so they must also have removed OH (and probably most of the others they are adding back) just recently.

    kaolis


    quality posts: 27 Private Messages kaolis
    twstdvn wrote:As a winery owner & wine consumer - these state by state laws are just plain stupid.

    If you want to blame someone, BIG BEER is behind many of the restrictions still in place or is the pressure not to change.

    In California, we have Family Winemakers of California who is squarely behind the "Free the Grapes" debate and who spends it's dollars against these restrictions.

    On Soap Box...

    What's crazy as a winery owner - it's a felony for me to ship wine to a state like Utah who forbids it, even if the customer is a relative and called me up asking for me to ship them a few bottles!

    And yet there are many very dangerous things (restricted items for felons) that could be shipped from an online store to known felons in California without any recourse.

    How is this possible?

    Off Soap Box...



    Yeppers, here in Illinois it is the big beer boys that flood the coffers of the legislature with cash...

    trifecta


    quality posts: 72 Private Messages trifecta
    rjquillin wrote:Just got a note that Lot18 Tasting Room is expanding their ship-to states, added:
    CT IA KS ME MA MI NC ND OH PA VT VA WV

    to existing states:
    CA CO DC FL ID LA MD NE NV NH NJ NM NY OR SC TN WI WY


    That's 31 states.
    How is it their model is so different?



    It is strange that Washington State is not on that list, because Woot can ship there. They must be working a different angle that causes problems in Washington.

    CONNIE1150


    quality posts: 0 Private Messages CONNIE1150

    Add Missouri to the list. I bought this before and now I can't. There were 2 others I tried to buy and could not! This stinks to high heaven!




    Stay tuned ...[/quote]

    CONNIE SEABAUGH

    rjquillin


    quality posts: 174 Private Messages rjquillin
    trifecta wrote:It is strange that Washington State is not on that list, because Woot can ship there. They must be working a different angle that causes problems in Washington.

    Nor is Texas.

    CT

    baristaboss58


    quality posts: 4 Private Messages baristaboss58

    Very sad in OHIO!!!

    bkarlan


    quality posts: 46 Private Messages bkarlan
    rjquillin wrote:Just got a note that Lot18 Tasting Room is expanding their ship-to states, added:
    CT IA KS ME MA MI NC ND OH PA VT VA WV

    to existing states:
    CA CO DC FL ID LA MD NE NV NH NJ NM NY OR SC TN WI WY


    That's 31 states.
    How is it their model is so different?



    Woohoo, PA is on the list. Looks like I can shop at Lot18 again

    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse..." - John Stuart Mill

    bkarlan


    quality posts: 46 Private Messages bkarlan
    bkarlan wrote:Woohoo, PA is on the list. Looks like I can shop at Lot18 again



    Lot18 says they wont ship to PA, but Invino will. Looks like I will be sticking to them until all of this nonsense gets sorted out.

    BTW I hate moving, but I see NM was taken off the list of Woot states too, so it isnt too bad

    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse..." - John Stuart Mill