rjquillin


quality posts: 170 Private Messages rjquillin

Making progress!

I'm not looking to sell units, but I suppose I could, but just come up with a BOM of what's needed.

I'm going to dig out some past posts and gather them here with all the upcoming details, but I've got a couple questions.

I'm looking at Thorpe tube flow meters, similar to what you see on medical O2 units, and need to select a flow range acceptable for the masses, or geeks, here.

Say you have a half full/empty 750 you want to gas and save, as opposed to decanting into a 375.
You need to put this 1/4" hose down into it and trigger on the flow to expel the air and mostly fill with Argon.

You will be able to adjust the flow rate, but what would an acceptable maximum time duration be to do this?

Second, what price range seems doable for the masses here?
Say for an initial outlay to do ~1000 1/2 bottle fills, and to refill.
It's looking to be between $100 and $200, depending on options.

The above may be a moot question, especially for refills, as the cost to refill either a 40ft3 cylinder is only 10% more than to refill a 20ft3 cylinder. Both are under $50.
Acquisition cost for the 40 is however higher, about double.

CT

joelsisk


quality posts: 7 Private Messages joelsisk

man, this post is a teaser. I didn't realize you still needed specs!

North316


quality posts: 107 Private Messages North316
rjquillin wrote:Making progress!

I'm not looking to sell units, but I suppose I could, but just come up with a BOM of what's needed.

I'm going to dig out some past posts and gather them here with all the upcoming details, but I've got a couple questions.

I'm looking at Thorpe tube flow meters, similar to what you see on medical O2 units, and need to select a flow range acceptable for the masses, or geeks, here.

Say you have a half full/empty 750 you want to gas and save, as opposed to decanting into a 375.
You need to put this 1/4" hose down into it and trigger on the flow to expel the air and mostly fill with Argon.

You will be able to adjust the flow rate, but what would an acceptable maximum time duration be to do this?

Second, what price range seems doable for the masses here?
Say for an initial outlay to do ~1000 1/2 bottle fills, and to refill.
It's looking to be between $100 and $200, depending on options.

The above may be a moot question, especially for refills, as the cost to refill either a 40ft3 cylinder is only 10% more than to refill a 20ft3 cylinder. Both are under $50.
Acquisition cost for the 40 is however higher, about double.



Umm, flow rate...why does this matter? Are we talking about a difference between it taking 10 seconds to fill with AR or 5 minutes? I guess I would need some context, but the time doesn't really seem like an issue to me.

As far as the tank goes, I would think unless it was significantly cheaper for the bigger tank, my preference would be a smaller tank. If you are saying the 40ft3 tank will allow you to fill approximately 1,000 bottles (unless you meant the tank plus one refill is 1,000 bottles), than the 20ft3 tank would fill 500 bottles. Even if that means I use it to fill the same bottle two separate times before the wine is gone, the 20ft3 tank would last me for 250 actual bottles (500 uses) which is 2-3 years at my current consumption rate. Meaning the smaller tank would be more than enough, and if the refill is $50, thats 10 cents per use and easily pays for itself in wine not poured down the drain.

In summation, flow rate doesn't matter (I think) and overall lowest cost v. lowest per use cost would be more important for me, though maybe not true with you higher volume users.

My CT
"Trust your homies on the net", Clark Smith.
R.I.P. Inkycatz - Feb. 2013

rjquillin


quality posts: 170 Private Messages rjquillin

Initial pricing on tanks has the 40 at anywhere between about $120 and $160. A 20 from Harbor Freight is ~$80. These may be found for less.

While I'm not impatient, there is little possibility I'll wait 5 minutes to backfill a bottle, possibly a minute, max, for me. Count it out, 60 seconds seems a long time for the task. I'd like to keep it well under that and closer to 10~15 seconds, but perhaps I'm just the impatient type. Exactly why I asked this question.

CT

North316


quality posts: 107 Private Messages North316
rjquillin wrote:Initial pricing on tanks has the 40 at anywhere between about $120 and $160. A 20 from Harbor Freight is ~$80. These may be found for less.

While I'm not impatient, there is little possibility I'll wait 5 minutes to backfill a bottle, possibly a minute, max, for me. Count it out, 60 seconds seems a long time for the task. I'd like to keep it well under that and closer to 10~15 seconds, but perhaps I'm just the impatient type. Exactly why I asked this question.



I guess my question is, what is the variable here? The faster the flow rate the more expensive the meter? Or are you just looking for a reference point on what you need to adjust the flow to? (I have no idea how any of this works, I'm an accountant, I just know numbers)

My CT
"Trust your homies on the net", Clark Smith.
R.I.P. Inkycatz - Feb. 2013

chipgreen


quality posts: 179 Private Messages chipgreen
rjquillin wrote:Initial pricing on tanks has the 40 at anywhere between about $120 and $160. A 20 from Harbor Freight is ~$80. These may be found for less.

While I'm not impatient, there is little possibility I'll wait 5 minutes to backfill a bottle, possibly a minute, max, for me. Count it out, 60 seconds seems a long time for the task. I'd like to keep it well under that and closer to 10~15 seconds, but perhaps I'm just the impatient type. Exactly why I asked this question.


People's perception of time changes when they are waiting for something. I remember reading a study about telephone callers being placed on hold. Their perception was that they were waiting approximately 3x longer than they actually were.

I can suck most of the air out of a half-empty bottle in 5 seconds or less with the Vacu-Vin. I agree that 10-15 seconds is about all I would be willing to wait to backfill with Ar.

rjquillin


quality posts: 170 Private Messages rjquillin
North316 wrote:I guess my question is, what is the variable here? The faster the flow rate the more expensive the meter? Or are you just looking for a reference point on what you need to adjust the flow to? (I have no idea how any of this works, I'm an accountant, I just know numbers)

I've been running with little to no effective metering, more on that in a sec. Most of the inexpensive flow/pressures meters are designed for TIG welding, what I have, and backfill flow rates are well below their effective threshold for any accuracy at all, but we don't really need accuracy if you accept some engineering trade offs.

One, you can just waste gas by overfilling. I've been doing this and just don't like the lack of elegance.

Second, you can roughly calibrate your system by timing how long it takes to displace, say water, in a filled bottle. I also did this.

I'm currently using a flow rate that empties a full bottle in ~30 seconds, and for a 1/2 empty bottle, I'll generally flush for ~30 seconds.

It's just my engineering self want's the accurate option, or to at least price it, so I can make an informed decision on where I'll spend my $$$.

CT

cmaldoon


quality posts: 62 Private Messages cmaldoon
rjquillin wrote:I've been running with little to no effective metering, more on that in a sec. Most of the inexpensive flow/pressures meters are designed for TIG welding, what I have, and backfill flow rates are well below their effective threshold for any accuracy at all, but we don't really need accuracy if you accept some engineering trade offs.

One, you can just waste gas by overfilling. I've been doing this and just don't like the lack of elegance.

Second, you can roughly calibrate your system by timing how long it takes to displace, say water, in a filled bottle. I also did this.

I'm currently using a flow rate that empties a full bottle in ~30 seconds, and for a 1/2 empty bottle, I'll generally flush for ~30 seconds.

It's just my engineering self want's the accurate option, or to at least price it, so I can make an informed decision on where I'll spend my $$$.



With the density of argon, does one even NEED to flush all the air out or will 100ml at STP do the trick simply by being a very heavy layer just above the wine?

Edit: did some research, there is likely too much mixing just through simple diffusion to make smaller amounts viable.

2014 - 20 Btl. Fjellene (10 bot), Urraca Chard (10 bot)
Last purchase: 5/3/14

2013 - 75 btl. 2012 - 98 btl. 2011 - 112 btl. 2010 - 30 btl.
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trifecta


quality posts: 69 Private Messages trifecta

10-15 seconds seems reasonable to me. I would pay more per use to have the convenience of a smaller tank. Flowmeter seems less important to me, and on that note... help me out.

So is it necessary to replace the entire gaseous volume with argon? Isn't it heavier than the air? If so, wouldn't a layer of argon sit on the surface of the wine while the air would then be separated from it? I am having a hard time remembering the partial pressure physics occurring. This would also assume that the bottle is resting nicely without much movement.

Just throwing it out there to set my mind right. I realize the most conservative approach would be to have all argon, but trying to figure out if it would really matter.

EDIT: Is it more complicated than this? Does the wine actually have some solubility with the argon that affect this situation as well?

man.... we are are something else around here

trifecta


quality posts: 69 Private Messages trifecta
cmaldoon wrote:With the density of argon, does one even NEED to flush all the air out or will 100ml at STP do the trick simply by being a very heavy layer just above the wine?



you beat me to it as I was typing

rjquillin


quality posts: 170 Private Messages rjquillin
cmaldoon wrote:With the density of argon, does one even NEED to flush all the air out or will 100ml at STP do the trick simply by being a very heavy layer just above the wine?

Edit: did some research, there is likely too much mixing just through simple diffusion to make smaller amounts viable.

Yes, it seems prudent to do a full flush, due to mixing.
Likely some 'air' will remain due to turbulence during fill, and we want to dilute it as much as feasible.

CT

North316


quality posts: 107 Private Messages North316
rjquillin wrote:Yes, it seems prudent to do a full flush, due to mixing.
Likely some 'air' will remain due to turbulence during fill, and we want to dilute it as much as feasible.



Wouldn't a slower flow rate be more efficient then?

My CT
"Trust your homies on the net", Clark Smith.
R.I.P. Inkycatz - Feb. 2013

cmaldoon


quality posts: 62 Private Messages cmaldoon
rjquillin wrote:Yes, it seems prudent to do a full flush, due to mixing.
Likely some 'air' will remain due to turbulence during fill, and we want to dilute it as much as feasible.



Just to reality check the mixing thing: Argon makes up ~1% of the atmosphere. If it settled out, there would be a layer ~200ft deep over the whole earth. Ok it certainly doesn't

2014 - 20 Btl. Fjellene (10 bot), Urraca Chard (10 bot)
Last purchase: 5/3/14

2013 - 75 btl. 2012 - 98 btl. 2011 - 112 btl. 2010 - 30 btl.
My Cellar

chipgreen


quality posts: 179 Private Messages chipgreen

When you backfill with Ar, how do you seal the bottle? Do you have the hose inserted through some kind of cap that fits inside of the bottle or do you just allow space around the hose, give it a good blast of Ar and try to pop a cork in it ASAP?

I'm thinking of a wacky idea, or something resembling an idea. What if there was a vented cap you could use to both fill and seal the bottle? Maybe something with a small quick-connect or needle valve fitting. Something similar to the Vacu-Vin but a little more heavy duty.

I'm thinking that if there was a pressure-relief valve/vent as well, that you could simply "push" the O2 out of the bottle as you're displacing it with the Ar. The Ar would enter the bottle through the needle valve, while the O2 would exit through the pressure release valve. The cap would stay in the bottle for storage, so you'd have to have multiple caps to store multiple bottles, again similar to the Vacu-Vin.

EDIT: Thinking about it.... it would probably take way too long to do it this way because of the amount of time it would take to push the O2 out through a small pressure-relief valve.

trifecta


quality posts: 69 Private Messages trifecta
cmaldoon wrote:Just to reality check the mixing thing: Argon makes up ~1% of the atmosphere. If it settled out, there would be a layer ~200ft deep over the whole earth. Ok it certainly doesn't



Thats kind of an apples and oranges comparison. If you had an empty bottle with no liquid and assumed the bottles surface was adiabatic, the argon would settle to the bottle. (non adiabatic would allow some natural convection within the bottle and thus some mixing) Mixing is occurring within the atmosphere.

I am very much looking forward to setting up my own argon system. Eventually I would like to incorporate it into a homemade wine preserver style setup. This would use the pressure of the argon to actually serve the wine from a tap. It would be so nice to come home and have 8 bottles already on tap....

rjquillin


quality posts: 170 Private Messages rjquillin
North316 wrote:Wouldn't a slower flow rate be more efficient then?

Yes, I believe it would. The tradeoff is in patience, I have little in normal practice. Perhaps there is a "special" bottle you may want to save a bit longer; one where you want a near 100% Ar atmosphere. Lacking empirical data I just don't know slow vs. fast fill, but it seems reasonable a slower, bottom up, fill would yield superior results.

This, is why I'm going to the trouble to source and ask about timing, and overall expense. With an accurate, low rate, flow gauge one could dial down the rate, time the fill, and know sufficient Ar had been dispensed. When returning to 'normal' usage, dial it back up for a quicker fill.

As I mentioned earlier, a calibration of sorts can be made by timing displacement, but adjustments away from that then become problematic. Likewise should a knob get unknowingly twisted resulting in over/under filling...

CT

rjquillin


quality posts: 170 Private Messages rjquillin
chipgreen wrote:When you backfill with Ar, how do you seal the bottle? Do you have the hose inserted through some kind of cap that fits inside of the bottle or do you just allow space around the hose, give it a good blast of Ar and try to pop a cork in it ASAP?

I really don't worry so much about it. Just how much mixing do you think you would get via the small neck in the very few seconds it takes to extract the fill tube and re-cork? I'm guessing little, but again I have no experimental data to substantiate my WAG.

That Ardente that went bad was backfilled. It had 200~300ml remaining, in a 750. It was 'sealed' with it's original cork horizontally in my larger home cellar. There was a huge surface area of wine exposed in the bottle, and the cork was not wetted; about the only thing that would have been worse would be with no Ar at room temperature. It had not ~turned~ to vinegar, but it was certainly making the effort.
Over the period of about two months, I believe the cork 'leaked' as it was not under wine.

I now use Zork closures for any bottles I expect to retain more than overnight.

CT

rjquillin


quality posts: 170 Private Messages rjquillin
trifecta wrote:Thats kind of an apples and oranges comparison. If you had an empty bottle with no liquid and assumed the bottles surface was adiabatic, the argon would settle to the bottle. (non adiabatic would allow some natural convection within the bottle and thus some mixing) Mixing is occurring within the atmosphere.

I am very much looking forward to setting up my own argon system. Eventually I would like to incorporate it into a homemade wine preserver style setup. This would use the pressure of the argon to actually serve the wine from a tap. It would be so nice to come home and have 8 bottles already on tap....

Our atmosphere certainly promotes mixing that would largely be absent in the confines of a sealed wine bottle.

I think richardhod just posted a tasting/dispensing/preserving system link to a system that uses a needle to pressurize the bottle and then dispense via the needle, before it is then extracted, with the hope the cork reseals itself.

CT

ddeuddeg


quality posts: 26 Private Messages ddeuddeg

This has been a most fascinating academic exercise. It makes me very grateful that my LW has similar tastes in wine, thus leftover wine is virtually non-existent around here.

"Always keep a bottle of Champagne in the fridge for special occasions. Sometimes the special occasion is that you've got a bottle of Champagne in the fridge". - Hester Browne


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tytiger58


quality posts: 74 Private Messages tytiger58
ddeuddeg wrote:This has been a most fascinating academic exercise. It makes me very grateful that my LW has similar tastes in wine, thus leftover wine is virtually non-existent around here.



+1

What contemptible scoundrel stole the cork from my lunch? ~ W. C. Fields

“Freedom is something that dies unless it's used” Hunter S Thompson




klezman


quality posts: 119 Private Messages klezman
ddeuddeg wrote:This has been a most fascinating academic exercise. It makes me very grateful that my LW has similar tastes in wine, thus leftover wine is virtually non-existent around here.



Same here...or at least molarchae is moving in that direction. Just need to get the tolerances up so we can easily go through a bottle most nights.

The Argon system looks excellent. And the extra geeking up of argon mixing makes it that much better. Win.

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polarbear22


quality posts: 35 Private Messages polarbear22
ddeuddeg wrote:This has been a most fascinating academic exercise. It makes me very grateful that my LW has similar tastes in wine, thus leftover wine is virtually non-existent around here.


I was getting excited about trying to construct a system. Then realized I would probably never use it. Ot it would be used to seal a second partial bottle some nights. And I don't think that is a practice we should start.

Polar bears are meant to be clever, very clever. They are the Einsteins of the bear community. - Anonymous
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North316


quality posts: 107 Private Messages North316
polarbear22 wrote:I was getting excited about trying to construct a system. Then realized I would probably never use it. Ot it would be used to seal a second partial bottle some nights. And I don't think that is a practice we should start.



Or you just do like Ron does and open 3 or 4 different bottles and just drink a small portion of them.

My CT
"Trust your homies on the net", Clark Smith.
R.I.P. Inkycatz - Feb. 2013

rjquillin


quality posts: 170 Private Messages rjquillin
North316 wrote:Or you just do like Ron does and open 3 or 4 different bottles and just drink a small portion of them.


+5
the number of bottles I frequently have open!

CT

loveladyelectric


quality posts: 23 Private Messages loveladyelectric

http://www.coravin.com/

trifecta


quality posts: 69 Private Messages trifecta
loveladyelectric wrote:http://www.coravin.com/



Yup. This has been discussed in the forums before.

rjquillin wrote:
I think richardhod just posted a tasting/dispensing/preserving system link to a system that uses a needle to pressurize the bottle and then dispense via the needle, before it is then extracted, with the hope the cork reseals itself.



There are some issues with this gadget though, not the least of which is the high cost. The review from wired made it sound pretty clunky and unrefined. I wouldn't want my good stuff just spurting out.

Appreciate the work by rj in getting the BOM going.... I would like to get this implemented soon.

Next project we can work on is a wine preserver/dispenser system!

trifecta


quality posts: 69 Private Messages trifecta
rjquillin wrote:Our atmosphere certainly promotes mixing that would largely be absent in the confines of a sealed wine bottle.

I think richardhod just posted a tasting/dispensing/preserving system link to a system that uses a needle to pressurize the bottle and then dispense via the needle, before it is then extracted, with the hope the cork reseals itself.



I would add this to the argon setup long before I would consider the coravin.

There are a bunch of other parts to look through on that site that can give some ideas for how to setup your own system at home too.

polarbear22


quality posts: 35 Private Messages polarbear22
North316 wrote:Or you just do like Ron does and open 3 or 4 different bottles and just drink a small portion of them.


The home wine bar version. That's what I'll watch for.

Polar bears are meant to be clever, very clever. They are the Einsteins of the bear community. - Anonymous
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rjquillin


quality posts: 170 Private Messages rjquillin
trifecta wrote:I would add this to the argon setup long before I would consider the coravin.

There are a bunch of other parts to look through on that site that can give some ideas for how to setup your own system at home too.

Yikes!
$18 for a single use Ar refill!

Those spigots remind me of what I recall seeing on Bunn coffee urns at truck stop cafes in the 50's and 60's.

Nice link for ideas, tnx.

CT

North316


quality posts: 107 Private Messages North316
rjquillin wrote:Yikes!
$18 for a single use Ar refill!.



It's a 2-pack....

My CT
"Trust your homies on the net", Clark Smith.
R.I.P. Inkycatz - Feb. 2013

trifecta


quality posts: 69 Private Messages trifecta

Yesterday I picked up a used winekeeper system for a really good price. I am not sure if I will buy a new bottle for it or just try to adapt to an argon bottle yet. At the low price I found it, I thought it was worth it just for the parts.

FYI, for this type of system the single stage regulator says it is running at 1.9psi, if that helps.

I also found a great deal on some private preserve large bottles, so those should hold me over until this system materializes.