lucasmeeker


quality posts: 77 Private Messages lucasmeeker
jonahp wrote:Lucas, I didn't mean to offend with the "dump" reference. I was trying to applaud the actions of your group. I get so confused hearing about wineries "defending the brand" by keeping prices high, while selling on flash sites. Even worse were the restaurants who wouldn't drop their prices on wine lists even after being offered discounts by the wineries. The only person I was trying to criticise was myself for not jumping on a wine faster since the "discount" to a somewhat arbitrary retail price wasn't as great.
I will restate, I loved the '04 Kiss Ridge, and I think the '05 and '06 are relative bargains at $45 before club or woot discounts. You guys are truly defending your brand by offering a product of this quality at an affordable price. Taking the time to reply to every comment on the forum is much appreciated as well.



Oh, I wasn't offended! Don't sweat it, I just wanted to take the opportunity to clarify the situation again so that there was reference for new people who didn't hear last year about the price issue.

It boils down to this: At the end of the day, when you're running a family business, you have to look at what you do as a business as part of what you do as a person. I think too many wineries think about the "somebody else" who would buy or drink their wine. We try and think about US, and if we would buy and be happy with the product we provide at a given price. I think this is probably the most fundamental difference between a "big winery" and a "small winery" point of view. I only add the quotes because I think there are people who belong in both categories from wineries of all sizes.

As far as responding to every comment: I love doing this. I think of these discussions as probably some of the most beneficial work I do as a member of the wine industry.

My biggest beefs in the wine industry are almost all information/education related, and there's only one way to combat that: inform and educate. Which others do as well, the problem is that a lot of it is framed in a "this is the BEST way to do this". I try and inform/educate from a non-exclusive perspective as frequently as I can where matters of opinion or style are concerned. By "non-exclusive" I mean that I'm not going to tell you that what we do in our winery is the best way to do it or the smartest or the anything-est... I'll tell you the facts behind why we do what we do honestly, and I'll give you some insight as to what the other options are, but in situations where different wineries have different styles or make different choices, it's really not my style to talk about "best", just us.

I tell people all the time that some of my favorite wines/wineries (that aren't ours/us) are wines made in style that we would never execute in our own winery. That said, they're great wines, made by talented people, and they're very successful executions of a style. Just not our style. The difference is being willing to admit to yourself and your customers that nobody is ever going to win the "BEST WINERY EVER" argument, and even if somebody did, you'd get bored of their wines pretty fast.

So, long story short, no offense taken, I was just taking the opportunity to provide some context and info. It's always easiest to preempt questions than answer them, and I'm more than happy to do so and take great pride in what I think is great discussion.

Lucas Meeker
The Meeker Vineyard
www.meekerwine.com
@meekerwine

Question? Just ask!

lucasmeeker


quality posts: 77 Private Messages lucasmeeker
bsevern wrote:
Sorry the notes are a bit brief but we were speed tasting that evening, tasted ~20 wines in about an hour and a half.



I know how you feel. Nothing fries my brain like tasting/checking 30+ bbl lots.

Lucas Meeker
The Meeker Vineyard
www.meekerwine.com
@meekerwine

Question? Just ask!

lucasmeeker


quality posts: 77 Private Messages lucasmeeker
sdilullo wrote:I still haven't touched any of my '04s from last year.

Still, for Lucas' always-awesome participation alone, it's hard not to go in on this!


I make it as difficult as possible.

You're welcome?

Lucas Meeker
The Meeker Vineyard
www.meekerwine.com
@meekerwine

Question? Just ask!

jonahp


quality posts: 1 Private Messages jonahp
lucasmeeker wrote:Agreed.

I could give you one of my famous (infamous?) 3,000 word diatribes on "drinking window" estimates from people if you want, but it boils down to this: Most of the people who make drinking window proclamations don't even know or think about the most important factors in that chemical process: pH, alcohol, residual sugar. Other things that can help: phenolic counts and experience with actually cellaring wine for that long.

I can't even begin to tell you how livid it makes me when I see a published drinking window that says 15-25 years when the wine is 3.8 pH, RS of 1.0+, and alc at 15.8+, which are not rare numbers for some Napa Cabs. That wine won't go 5 years, let alone 15, yet because it's Napa Cab people slap a decade or two on it 'cuz it tastes like a pile of barrels covered in barrel dust.



I appreciate the science to determine a wine's ageing potential, but what about wines that enter a dumb phase? The most confusing aspect of consuming wine for me is when a wine is great relatively young and then shuts down. Is there any way to figure out from a wine's stats if it will have a nice steady improvement and decline or if it will have more of a double peak?

lucasmeeker


quality posts: 77 Private Messages lucasmeeker
rpm wrote:Sigh. My first personal experience with highly-touted wines that lacked structure and acid, and hence faded within a few years after release were the 1974 Napa Cabernets. Very nice, relatively forward (for the time) fruit, a little hot (for the time) wines with modest tannin in youth, few of them aged gracefully. It was my first widespread experience with the phenomenon I'd been told about by my great uncles and grandfather.



Interesting to hear about that. The only '70s wines I've had were relatively successful Heitz vintages and a handful of others.

But yes, drinking window estimations done simply by palate and guess are really not helpful for anybody. But, the reality is that very few people (relatively) will actually age the wine that long, and at that point it's been so long that you probably couldn't find the mosquito who gave you the bad info to begin with, even if you had sharpened your pitchfork and lit your torch and everything.

Accountability in wine writing... *le sigh*.

Lucas Meeker
The Meeker Vineyard
www.meekerwine.com
@meekerwine

Question? Just ask!

inkycatz


quality posts: 105 Private Messages inkycatz
jonahp wrote:Is there any way to figure out from a wine's stats if it will have a nice steady improvement and decline or if it will have more of a double peak?


This is a fantastic question, by the way.

I'm just hanging out, really.

lucasmeeker


quality posts: 77 Private Messages lucasmeeker
tornadotj wrote:Kiss Ridge is one of my favorite Meeker wines. About to jump on this one.

By the way Lucas, your pinots were very good. Yes I drank them all already, can't wait to get more when the heat subsides. And yes, we were one of those that got a hot shipment, but the wine was still really good. Can't wait to try it with better shipping conditions!



You're going to get a complimentary reshipment once the weather gets better. I just haven't had a chance to inform everyone yet. Thanks for the kind words. Make sure you check out the website: lucasjcellars.com.

Lucas Meeker
The Meeker Vineyard
www.meekerwine.com
@meekerwine

Question? Just ask!

lucasmeeker


quality posts: 77 Private Messages lucasmeeker
inkycatz wrote:It's a pretty awesome phrase, yeah.



If this shows up on shirt.woot I better get royalties.

Lucas Meeker
The Meeker Vineyard
www.meekerwine.com
@meekerwine

Question? Just ask!

inkycatz


quality posts: 105 Private Messages inkycatz
lucasmeeker wrote:If this shows up on shirt.woot I better get royalties.



Duly noted, sir! (And thanks for being on top of all these questions. We love when our winemakers hang out with us.)

I'm just hanging out, really.

North316


quality posts: 98 Private Messages North316
lucasmeeker wrote:It's important to note that the brix and pH noted are at pick, not at inoculation. We are aggressive and notorious for our acid additions and we make water corrections when necessary. You can assume that ferm started at 7.5 g/L TA and 25.0 brix. That's usually our correction target provided it's within an acceptable beginning range.



Lucas, I know you have talked about this before, can you explain a little further your basis for doing this. Do you do this with all of your wines? Do you feel that this at all hampers the wine from showing the true characteristics of the varietal and/or the specific vineyard/appellation (I'm not saying it does, just asking your opinion/reasoning)? Is this fairly common in the wine industry, and if so/not, is it more common among smaller or larger producers? You like to teach, and I like to learn, and since you are the only winery that I have seen really openly discussing acid and water additions, I just had to ask!

My CT
"Trust your homies on the net", Clark Smith.
R.I.P. Inkycatz - Feb. 2013

North316


quality posts: 98 Private Messages North316
lucasmeeker wrote:You're going to get a complimentary reshipment once the weather gets better. I just haven't had a chance to inform everyone yet. Thanks for the kind words. Make sure you check out the website: lucasjcellars.com.



This prompted me to go on a search for dessert wines, since I can't get enough. I noticed that Meeker Vineyards has two listed: 2005 FroZin, Russian River Valley, 2003 Tutu Luna.

Any chance there is enough of these to share with woot?

My CT
"Trust your homies on the net", Clark Smith.
R.I.P. Inkycatz - Feb. 2013

lucasmeeker


quality posts: 77 Private Messages lucasmeeker
jonahp wrote:I appreciate the science to determine a wine's ageing potential, but what about wines that enter a dumb phase? The most confusing aspect of consuming wine for me is when a wine is great relatively young and then shuts down. Is there any way to figure out from a wine's stats if it will have a nice steady improvement and decline or if it will have more of a double peak?



Let me try and tackle this in sections...

There is a difference between a wine entering a dumb phase (even if permanent) and the wine being past its prime. Wine that has just aged too long is thin, has no phenolic character, lacks color substantially so, and basically tastes kind of watered down and hot. This is because quite literally all off the tannin and other phenolics have oxidized out, thus you slowly lose the character.

A wine that's in a dumb phase just won't taste very good, but won't taste oxidized or thing. It should still have perceptible structure (even if it doesn't taste very good) and shouldn't lack color (though browning is normal to varying degrees depending on varietal and stye and region).

So, there's that. But it's more complicated than just that:

The term "dumb phase" really describes almost any wine that just tastes flat or muted or not very good throughout the aging process. But, what's important to note is that this result could be from things other than just a funky time in the wine's aging (which certainly happens frequently). It could be in-bottle spoilage from Brett or any number of bacterial and yeast issues (also dependent on wine chemistry, style, and whether or not it was filtered etc). It could be poor closures (don't assume that cork taint is the only issues corks have, poor corks can oxidize a wine too fast or too slowly and if a wine has the matching parameters could lead to H2S or other issues (unlikely, but possible)). It could be poor storage. It could be a million things.

In fact, I covered some of the things that can go wrong during winemaking with a long answer on Quora, some of them apply here:
http://www.quora.com/What-kinds-of-things-go-wrong-in-the-winemaking-process

That said, there's a lot of things about wine aging that are still a mystery. In fact, I don't talk about this one much (because sometimes the reactions I get make me think it's like telling somebody they're in the Matrix), but there was a recent study I read that suggested that the oxygen transmission of a cork (or any other closure) has nothing to do with how a wine ages. This is the exact opposite from the practical and dominant scientific perspectives on the issue. If I can find the study, I will, but I can't seem to right now.

Anyways, there are lots of things about wine that are still a mystery, how wine ages and dumb phases still being an area where a lot of mystery remains, so to an extent, on some of these issues there is no right answer, you just age the wine and hope for the best. But my point was that you can make a very educated guess about the realistic aging potential of a wine from the chemistry, and that frequently the numbers bandied about are missing the "educated" part.

As far as the parts of it that are still a mystery, you can take two stands on those issues: you can enjoy that not every single thing about winemaking is in a text book yet (makes me feel better almost every day), or you can donate money to UC Davis or AWRI or purchase products from companies doing great research and help them figure it out.

I do a little of both.

Lucas Meeker
The Meeker Vineyard
www.meekerwine.com
@meekerwine

Question? Just ask!

tornadotj


quality posts: 6 Private Messages tornadotj
lucasmeeker wrote:You're going to get a complimentary reshipment once the weather gets better. I just haven't had a chance to inform everyone yet. Thanks for the kind words. Make sure you check out the website: lucasjcellars.com.



We got the notice, and were completely surprised. THAT is good service, where YOU inform US that you are replacing and we don't even have to ask! You are the only one that has ever done that for us.

Dallas, TX

sdilullo


quality posts: 30 Private Messages sdilullo
lucasmeeker wrote:I make it as difficult as possible.

You're welcome?



To that last point...

My tastebuds say thank you, my wallet says no way.

Considering the company around here, well... I think you know which one usually wins that battle.

my CT | bottles wooted to date: 207
my flying adventures | a mile of road will take you a mile, but a mile of runway will take you anywhere.

rjquillin


quality posts: 90 Private Messages rjquillin
lucasmeeker wrote:Let me try and tackle this in sections...

Anyways, there are lots of things about wine that are still a mystery, how wine ages and dumb phases still being an area where a lot of mystery remains, so to an extent, on some of these issues there is no right answer, you just age the wine and hope for the best. But my point was that you can make a very educated guess about the realistic aging potential of a wine from the chemistry, and that frequently the numbers bandied about are missing the "educated" part.

As far as the parts of it that are still a mystery, you can take two stands on those issues: you can enjoy that not every single thing about winemaking is in a text book yet (makes me feel better almost every day), or you can donate money to UC Davis or AWRI or purchase products from companies doing great research and help them figure it out.

I do a little of both.


Great discussion here.
Regarding the chemistry, and this likely has been discussed before I was following the boards, what parameters does one look for and what are reasonable limits for an 'ageable' wine. We've seen that lower pH numbers contribute, as do lower RS numbers; but can you cite some numbers here. And, how does TA play into the mix? That one I don't feel like I've got much of a handle on at all.

CT

rpm


quality posts: 153 Private Messages rpm
lucasmeeker wrote:Let me try and tackle this in sections...

There is a difference between a wine entering a dumb phase (even if permanent) and the wine being past its prime. Wine that has just aged too long is thin, has no phenolic character, lacks color substantially so, and basically tastes kind of watered down and hot. This is because quite literally all off the tannin and other phenolics have oxidized out, thus you slowly lose the character.

A wine that's in a dumb phase just won't taste very good, but won't taste oxidized or thing. It should still have perceptible structure (even if it doesn't taste very good) and shouldn't lack color (though browning is normal to varying degrees depending on varietal and stye and region).

So, there's that. But it's more complicated than just that:

The term "dumb phase" really describes almost any wine that just tastes flat or muted or not very good throughout the aging process. But, what's important to note is that this result could be from things other than just a funky time in the wine's aging (which certainly happens frequently). It could be in-bottle spoilage from Brett or any number of bacterial and yeast issues (also dependent on wine chemistry, style, and whether or not it was filtered etc). It could be poor closures (don't assume that cork taint is the only issues corks have, poor corks can oxidize a wine too fast or too slowly and if a wine has the matching parameters could lead to H2S or other issues (unlikely, but possible)). It could be poor storage. It could be a million things.

In fact, I covered some of the things that can go wrong during winemaking with a long answer on Quora, some of them apply here:
http://www.quora.com/What-kinds-of-things-go-wrong-in-the-winemaking-process

That said, there's a lot of things about wine aging that are still a mystery. In fact, I don't talk about this one much (because sometimes the reactions I get make me think it's like telling somebody they're in the Matrix), but there was a recent study I read that suggested that the oxygen transmission of a cork (or any other closure) has nothing to do with how a wine ages. This is the exact opposite from the practical and dominant scientific perspectives on the issue. If I can find the study, I will, but I can't seem to right now.

Anyways, there are lots of things about wine that are still a mystery, how wine ages and dumb phases still being an area where a lot of mystery remains, so to an extent, on some of these issues there is no right answer, you just age the wine and hope for the best. But my point was that you can make a very educated guess about the realistic aging potential of a wine from the chemistry, and that frequently the numbers bandied about are missing the "educated" part.

As far as the parts of it that are still a mystery, you can take two stands on those issues: you can enjoy that not every single thing about winemaking is in a text book yet (makes me feel better almost every day), or you can donate money to UC Davis or AWRI or purchase products from companies doing great research and help them figure it out.

I do a little of both.



Very well put. I would just add that when I use the term, I'm principally referring to phase where the (usually Cab/Cab blend) wine seems to have muted flavors and not to be either fruity and young, or mature and full of bouquet. Historically, most top California Cabs/Cab blends typically went through such a phase. In that circumstance, the wine will highly likely come out into a nicer maturity.

The times it's the end of a wine are the various problematic causes of 'dumbness' you so nicely articulated.

This post/discussion should be added to the major tasting thread A Cat Died in my Mouth! (or) How to Develop the Professional Palate YOU Want!.

Wine-tasting in 8 words:
Pull lots of corks!
Remember what you taste!

bahwm


quality posts: 15 Private Messages bahwm

Wow! 12 hours up on w.w. and gone! Somehow, I missed it at last week's tasting and now I missed buying it!

Congrats on the sellout!

May our love be like good wine, grow stronger as it grows older. ~ Old English Toast

cmaldoon


quality posts: 46 Private Messages cmaldoon

Wait... Did this really sell out in 12 hours? Just when I was looking and wanting a set? :-( as Lucas Meeker says... *Le Sigh*

2013: 52btl. Crusher Orange wine (8 Btl), Terra Bella Cab (4 Btl), Wellington Victory (4 btl), Winesmith Chard (12 Btl), Ardente Cab (12Btl), McClean Syrah (12 bot)
Last purchase: 5/17/13
Longest SIWBM of year: 44 days

2012 - 98 btl. 2011- 112 btl. 2010 - 30 btl. Besser or Curly 2
My Cellar

rpm


quality posts: 153 Private Messages rpm
lucasmeeker wrote:Interesting to hear about that. The only '70s wines I've had were relatively successful Heitz vintages and a handful of others.

But yes, drinking window estimations done simply by palate and guess are really not helpful for anybody. But, the reality is that very few people (relatively) will actually age the wine that long, and at that point it's been so long that you probably couldn't find the mosquito who gave you the bad info to begin with, even if you had sharpened your pitchfork and lit your torch and everything.

Accountability in wine writing... *le sigh*.



The decade of the '70s had some very good and rather bad years: 1970 (which I consider the second finest vintage of the 20th century - after only 1941 - top wines well stored are still in good form); 1978 was the second best vintage of the decade (top wines still going strong), then 1973 (underrated when young, but aged very well). 1971, 1972 and 1977 were very weak (though I had a great 1972 Heitz Martha's at around 20). 1974 was good for young wines, not for aging. 1975 and 1976 were 'ok' years for the most part - the '75s were hard and stayed hard, the '76s were just ok. 1979 was great for Napa Chardonnay, but otherwise only ok to weak (but Beaulieu made a really nice de Latour that's still going strong).

Wine-tasting in 8 words:
Pull lots of corks!
Remember what you taste!

lucasmeeker


quality posts: 77 Private Messages lucasmeeker
North316 wrote:Lucas, I know you have talked about this before, can you explain a little further your basis for doing this. Do you do this with all of your wines? Do you feel that this at all hampers the wine from showing the true characteristics of the varietal and/or the specific vineyard/appellation (I'm not saying it does, just asking your opinion/reasoning)? Is this fairly common in the wine industry, and if so/not, is it more common among smaller or larger producers? You like to teach, and I like to learn, and since you are the only winery that I have seen really openly discussing acid and water additions, I just had to ask!



Man, this is like a baker's dozen of big-opinion-based-caveat-riddled-theoretical-slash-philosophical-winemaking-idea-swamp questions. Let me see if I can do this efficiently.

>> "Can you explain a little further your basis for doing this. Do you do this with all of your wines?"

The basis is this: The lower the pH of a juice/wine, the more inherently hostile it is to spoilage organisms (at least in the wine pH range of 3.0-4.0, it actually gets less hostile again below 3.0). I could give you the full explanation why, but it would take a few hundred words and I'm already boring. Long story short, the more acidic a wine is the cleaner it will stay all by itself, but more importantly, the more effective the Free SO2 will be in preventing microbial issues (pH directly affects the amount of SO2 that remains in molecular form versus bisulfite or sulfite form, the molecular SO2 is the effective anti-microbial).

You can see what I mean by checking this pH vs. Free SO2 required to achieve .3, .5, and .8 molecular SO2: http://www.enartisvinquiry.com/download/TECH_INFO/Distribution%20of%20Free%20SO2.pdf

That's the sciency reason, at least. More importantly, from a style perspective, we just like our wines more acidic. My dad grew up drinking French wine, and parts of what the French do are very important to what he values in a wine, thus our house style reflects those personal values. My dad is all about acidic wines because they increase barrel aging stability (which is necessary for us because of our primary ferm style), bottle stability, aging potential, and most importantly, the wines drink better with food.

We *pretty much* do this with all of the Meeker wines. We want to finish most or all of our wines with ~14.8% alcohol and < 3.5 pH. This is not always possible (some vineyards/varietals don't lend themselves to that pH target, increased must potassium levels buffer pH against TA and reduce pH reduction potential), but it's a good starting point. That said, we don't treat any vineyard/varietal/etc. with a recipe. So while that's sort of our typical jumping off point, it really is just a jumping off point. Meaning in some cases we might not acidulate as aggressively, in some cases we might acidulate even more. Tough to summarize, but that's sort of our assumed first step, though it's modified more often than not to tailor fit a given goal/must.

>> "Do you feel that this at all hampers the wine from showing the true characteristics of the varietal and/or the specific vineyard/appellation (I'm not saying it does, just asking your opinion/reasoning)?"

No. I don't feel that way. For a few reasons.

1. I think the "purity"/"vineyard expression"/"terroir-driven" angle is really a hyped-up way to make certain style choices seem more honest or organic or something like that, when it's not really a fair depiction of winemaking choices. Because ultimately, even if your choice is to do nothing, you've still made a winemaking choice. This goes back to the idea that one way of winemaking is "best". Not only is that competition un-winnable, it's also a huge waste of energy. Moreover, it's just a bummer. The concept that one way of winemaking is more "pure" or "terroir-driven" than another is really a cheesecloth-thin marketing veil. To frame it in a moralistic purity-oriented betterness scale is just silly.

2. Why is it assumed that making an acid or water addition is inhibiting the vineyard/appelation/varietal expression as opposed to vice versa? You could just as easily argue that by increasing the acidity and lowering pH you're preventing microbiotic spoilage from interfering with the natural expression of the vineyard. But you could argue from the other side that "wild" (lol wild) yeasts are a more "pure" choice. But then you could argue against that by saying that there's no such thing as wild/native yeasts in a commercial winery (true). Ultimately, all of these arguments are just style and preference, and trying to make one sound more "pure" than the other is just marketing fluff. They're winemaking decisions. Different people make different ones. That's what makes wine worth drinking and thinking about and paying attention to and caring about and etcetera.

Or to frame it more simply: tartaric acid has no discernible flavor effect (acid is acid is acid). Why would adding acid be any more of an effect on the expression of a vineyard/varietal/appellation than using French oak barrels that are from a forest 6000 miles away that contribute massive amounts of phenolic character, polysaccharides, ellagic tannins, etc?

This is what blows my mind: the "purity"/"vineyard expression" people are frequently also the ones that brag about their 60% new French barrel program.

Cake/eat it too?

>> "Is this fairly common in the wine industry, and if so/not, is it more common among smaller or larger producers?"

Totally common at wineries of all sizes. There are, of course, people who won't do it (for whatever reasons they have), or people who would prefer not to, or people who don't want the effects that these additions make. Lots of people want to make high pH, high alcohol wine and lots of people like that wine. So, yes, very common, but not everybody does it with every wine (we don't either, some wines come in ready to rock, no additions needed), and like I said above, achieving a given target might not always be possible (depending on what the target is and what level the target is).

But I'll put it to you this way: Water additions are common enough to have created the joke-term Chateau Le'Hose. And tartaric acid additions are common enough that one of the biggest fermentation supply companies is called American Tartaric Products, and their first question on Tartaric pricing is whether you're buying a whole pallet or not.

What is certainly a lot less common: Citric acid additions. That's something the bigger wineries (typically, but others do as well) do on their whites to develop citrus character.

What is less common in the high-end wine world: acid REDUCTION. Like I said, there are a lot of people who want high pH wine. Wine ages faster at a higher pH, so increasing pH reduces time-to-market (ever wonder why you see Australian reds on the shelf in December of the harvest vintage?) and increases fruitiness and all sorts of other stuff (especially in tandem with high alcohol and residual sugar).

Okay, that should cover it. I can touch up some details if necessary. I need a Gatorade.

Lucas Meeker
The Meeker Vineyard
www.meekerwine.com
@meekerwine

Question? Just ask!

inkycatz


quality posts: 105 Private Messages inkycatz
lucasmeeker wrote:(EPIC)
Okay, that should cover it. I can touch up some details if necessary. I need a Gatorade.




Wow, I'm still reading but thanks for all this info!

I'm just hanging out, really.

rpm


quality posts: 153 Private Messages rpm
lucasmeeker wrote:(big post)



Or, a beer. More than one winemaker has said it takes a lot of good beer to make good wine....

Wine-tasting in 8 words:
Pull lots of corks!
Remember what you taste!

lucasmeeker


quality posts: 77 Private Messages lucasmeeker
rjquillin wrote:Great discussion here.
Regarding the chemistry, and this likely has been discussed before I was following the boards, what parameters does one look for and what are reasonable limits for an 'ageable' wine. We've seen that lower pH numbers contribute, as do lower RS numbers; but can you cite some numbers here. And, how does TA play into the mix? That one I don't feel like I've got much of a handle on at all.



Ageable wine really should be under 3.6 pH, and the lower the longer the aging potential could be.

RS: Ideally a table wine meant to age should be chemically dry (if I remember properly, <30 mg/100ml of glucose/fructose). A fermentable amount of RS does nothing but feed bacteria/yeast and provide material for problems to develop. That said, if the wine is sterile filtered/very clean/low pH this could possibly not be an issue at all, but those can be big ifs.

TA is the abbreviation for titratable acidity. It's a measure of total acid content, but not necessarily strength/ion concentration. TA is an important number as to how it relates to pH, but the pH is probably more important. Not only for its anti-microbial properties but also because of how it affects taste.

Lucas Meeker
The Meeker Vineyard
www.meekerwine.com
@meekerwine

Question? Just ask!

lucasmeeker


quality posts: 77 Private Messages lucasmeeker
rpm wrote:Or, a beer. More than one winemaker has said it takes a lot of good beer to make good wine....



Too early for beer, but I had an effing delicious beer last night, Dust Bowl's Hops of Wrath. They're killing it out in Turlock. Best Brewery You Haven't Heard Of (YET).

Lucas Meeker
The Meeker Vineyard
www.meekerwine.com
@meekerwine

Question? Just ask!

North316


quality posts: 98 Private Messages North316
lucasmeeker wrote:"Awesome Response from Lucas"



Lucas, if you ever have any questions on Accounting, I would happy to answer them for you, lol.

My CT
"Trust your homies on the net", Clark Smith.
R.I.P. Inkycatz - Feb. 2013

lucasmeeker


quality posts: 77 Private Messages lucasmeeker
rpm wrote:The decade of the '70s had some very good and rather bad years: 1970 (which I consider the second finest vintage of the 20th century - after only 1941 - top wines well stored are still in good form); 1978 was the second best vintage of the decade (top wines still going strong), then 1973 (underrated when young, but aged very well). 1971, 1972 and 1977 were very weak (though I had a great 1972 Heitz Martha's at around 20). 1974 was good for young wines, not for aging. 1975 and 1976 were 'ok' years for the most part - the '75s were hard and stayed hard, the '76s were just ok. 1979 was great for Napa Chardonnay, but otherwise only ok to weak (but Beaulieu made a really nice de Latour that's still going strong).



Interesting. My dad says frequently that one of the best wines he ever had was a 77 Martha's.

In fact, I know of a restaurant that has most of the Heitz Cab/Heitz Martha's from 71-89 at verrry reasonable prices. Cool place, and had a nice 80-something a few months ago that was showing well.

Lucas Meeker
The Meeker Vineyard
www.meekerwine.com
@meekerwine

Question? Just ask!

lucasmeeker


quality posts: 77 Private Messages lucasmeeker
North316 wrote:Lucas, if you ever have any questions on Accounting, I would happy to answer them for you, lol.



Oh you don't want to say that. Too many questions. Too painful.

Lucas Meeker
The Meeker Vineyard
www.meekerwine.com
@meekerwine

Question? Just ask!

rpm


quality posts: 153 Private Messages rpm
lucasmeeker wrote:Interesting. My dad says frequently that one of the best wines he ever had was a 77 Martha's.

In fact, I know of a restaurant that has most of the Heitz Cab/Heitz Martha's from 71-89 at verrry reasonable prices. Cool place, and had a nice 80-something a few months ago that was showing well.



I'm one of those people who age my quality Cabernet - I rarely drink it under 10, other than to see how it's coming along, and that infrequently.

We need to have dinner at this restaurant next time I'm in the area....

Wine-tasting in 8 words:
Pull lots of corks!
Remember what you taste!

redwinefan


quality posts: 70 Private Messages redwinefan

Thanks for all the great responses today Lucas. I have to say this has been one of the most educational Woot threads in a long time. Now I won't have to shell out for that UC Davis certificate ;)

"You need to invest in a corkscrew. Wine is for drinking." -- Peter Wellington

lucasmeeker


quality posts: 77 Private Messages lucasmeeker
rpm wrote:I'm one of those people who age my quality Cabernet - I rarely drink it under 10, other than to see how it's coming along, and that infrequently.

We need to have dinner at this restaurant next time I'm in the area....



It's actually in LA. It's called Vito and is on Ocean Park in Santa Monica. Damn good old school Italian-American place. Wine list was epic.

http://www.yelp.com/biz/vito-italian-restaurant-santa-monica

Lucas Meeker
The Meeker Vineyard
www.meekerwine.com
@meekerwine

Question? Just ask!

klezman


quality posts: 83 Private Messages klezman

Thanks for buying quickly enough to sell out! Now the decision is out of my hands I will enjoy reading the comments, since I expect Lucas and rpm and others have had some interesting things to say.

2013: 35 bottles. Last wine.woot: Diamond Ridge Cab Franc. Last split: R. Merlo Pinot Noir
2012: 91 bottles, 2011: 92 bottles, 2010: 74 bottles, 2009: 30 bottles, 2008: 3 bottles My CT

lucasmeeker


quality posts: 77 Private Messages lucasmeeker
redwinefan wrote:Thanks for all the great responses today Lucas. I have to say this has been one of the most educational Woot threads in a long time. Now I won't have to shell out for that UC Davis certificate ;)



No sweat. Take some of the UC Davis Extension classes. They're worth their weight in gold if you want to learn winemaking from an industry perspective. I went to quite a few of them.

Lucas Meeker
The Meeker Vineyard
www.meekerwine.com
@meekerwine

Question? Just ask!

lucasmeeker


quality posts: 77 Private Messages lucasmeeker

I'm sorry we sold out so quickly. We are, unfortunately, totally sold out of the 2005 now. But, we do have a little bit of 2004 and a little bit of 2006. To make up for the early sell out:

If you call the tasting room today I'll make sure you get a 3 pack of either of those for the Woot price ($79.99), but our shipping is more expensive. Just mention this post and Julia will take care of you. Contact information here:

TR 707.431.2148
tastingroom@meekerwine.com

Lucas Meeker
The Meeker Vineyard
www.meekerwine.com
@meekerwine

Question? Just ask!

kylemittskus


quality posts: 213 Private Messages kylemittskus
lucasmeeker wrote:1. I think the "purity"/"vineyard expression"/"terroir-driven" angle is really a hyped-up way to make certain style choices seem more honest or organic or something like that, when it's not really a fair depiction of winemaking choices. Because ultimately, even if your choice is to do nothing, you've still made a winemaking choice. This goes back to the idea that one way of winemaking is "best". Not only is that competition un-winnable, it's also a huge waste of energy. Moreover, it's just a bummer. The concept that one way of winemaking is more "pure" or "terroir-driven" than another is really a cheesecloth-thin marketing veil. To frame it in a moralistic purity-oriented betterness scale is just silly.



THIS x 1,000!!!!! I absolutely love this post (incredibly informative), but THIS.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

"There are many ways to the recognition of truth; Burgundy is one of them." -Isak Dinesen

InFrom


quality posts: 26 Private Messages InFrom

Never even saw it bouncing (or whatever it's called these days).

fredrinaldi


quality posts: 15 Private Messages fredrinaldi
bahwm wrote:Wow! 12 hours up on w.w. and gone! Somehow, I missed it at last week's tasting and now I missed buying it!

Congrats on the sellout!



so happy I bought early :-)

kylemittskus


quality posts: 213 Private Messages kylemittskus
InFrom wrote:Never even saw it bouncing (or whatever it's called these days).



Seizure.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

"There are many ways to the recognition of truth; Burgundy is one of them." -Isak Dinesen

tytiger58


quality posts: 62 Private Messages tytiger58
lucasmeeker wrote:It's actually in LA. It's called Vito and is on Ocean Park in Santa Monica. Damn good old school Italian-American place. Wine list was epic.

http://www.yelp.com/biz/vito-italian-restaurant-santa-monica



Reservation made...thanks!

What contemptible scoundrel stole the cork from my lunch? ~ W. C. Fields

“Freedom is something that dies unless it's used” Hunter S Thompson




webdev511


quality posts: 29 Private Messages webdev511

Not surprised one bit that this sold out. Most 2005 Napa wines are only getting better. So glad I got in on this.

eluofthenine


quality posts: 6 Private Messages eluofthenine

Glad I clicked earlier in the day! This made only my second summer click (after a reckless winter and summer.)