noslensj


quality posts: 42 Private Messages noslensj

With summer shipping and all this is a question I was wondering about, being still pretty much a wine newbie.

Obviously, there's a problem if the wine arrives and the corks are pushed halfway out of the bottle and juice has been leading. But without such obviousness, what are the tells?

jhkey


quality posts: 51 Private Messages jhkey
noslensj wrote:With summer shipping and all this is a question I was wondering about, being still pretty much a wine newbie.

Obviously, there's a problem if the wine arrives and the corks are pushed halfway out of the bottle and juice has been leading. But without such obviousness, what are the tells?



leaky corks are probably the best sign without opening the wine. Many times there will be a small amount of sticky wine residue outside the foil. If I'm suspicious, I remove the foil and look for leaks along the cork.
Once you open the bottle, you will know. It will taste like vinegar.

"I double the doctor's recommendation of a glass and a half of wine a day and even treble it with a friend."
- Thomas Jefferson (CT)

bkarlan


quality posts: 46 Private Messages bkarlan

Cooked and corked are two different things.

As I learned a slightly raised cork does not mean the wine as been compromised. The press might not have pushed the cork all the way in.

The easiest way to tell is to try the wine, if it taste burnt it has been cooked.

A leaking bottle is a different story and I would never try that bottle.

Corked wine taste like wet newspaper.

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse..." - John Stuart Mill

blakewoot


quality posts: 11 Private Messages blakewoot
bkarlan wrote:Cooked and corked are two different things.

As I learned a slightly raised cork does not mean the wine as been compromised. The press might not have pushed the cork all the way in.

The easiest way to tell is to try the wine, if it taste burnt it has been cooked.

A leaking bottle is a different story and I would never try that bottle.

Corked wine taste like wet newspaper.



Is it always totally obvious, though? I received 3 bottles of cooked Page cellars last month in a total shipment of four bottles. There was a small amount of leakage from the top of the foil on all three. Woot replaced them (although the replacements have not arrived yet...)

You can see pictures of these bottles here.

But the fourth bottle looked fine, so I didn't ask for a replacement on that. I drank that bottle last week. When I opened it, the cork did have a deep red stain on the bottom, and was red half way up the side - but not all the way to the top like the "cooked" bottles. And the wine tasted... pretty good. Not knowing what it was supposed to taste like, and not being an expert, I was nagged by suspicions. Was the wine as good as it was supposed to be? Was it slightly cooked?

So... is it totally obvious to the palate when I wine has been cooked? Or corked, for that matter? Or is it a sliding scale and a matter of judgement, like so much else?

noslensj


quality posts: 42 Private Messages noslensj
blakewoot wrote:Is it always totally obvious, though? I received 3 bottles of cooked Page cellars last month in a total shipment of four bottles. There was a small amount of leakage from the top of the foil on all three. Woot replaced them (although the replacements have not arrived yet...)

You can see pictures of these bottles here.

But the fourth bottle looked fine, so I didn't ask for a replacement on that. I drank that bottle last week. When I opened it, the cork did have a deep red stain on the bottom, and was red half way up the side - but not all the way to the top like the "cooked" bottles. And the wine tasted... pretty good. Not knowing what it was supposed to taste like, and not being an expert, I was nagged by suspicions. Was the wine as good as it was supposed to be? Was it slightly cooked?

So... is it totally obvious to the palate when I wine has been cooked? Or corked, for that matter? Or is it a sliding scale and a matter of judgement, like so much else?


You described my situation almost precisely, which is what led me to post the question.

In my case I received a shipment of six bottles from wtso that came across country during the heat wave a couple of weeks ago. No leakage from the bottles. I noted that the top edge of the cork is flush with the top edge of the bottle, but the center of the cork bulges outward significantly (about one-quarter inch). Does that mean the cork has been pushed out slightly due to heat, or is that normal? (The cork appears to composed of bits of natural cork, pressed together and undoubtedly held together with some type of binder.) After opening the coloring and staining of the corks doesn't appear abnormal.

The wine, though, seems to me to lack substance. Has a wonderful, intense and deep nose in the glass. On tasting it definitely tends to be a bit fruit forward, but nothing really develops after that. Quite a disparity between what seemed to be promised by the nose and what was delivered on the palate.

I've had the previous years version of this vintage, which was extremely good. These bottles, in comparison, simply lack the depth and complexity of what I was expecting.

It leaves me wondering if what I'm tasting just variation in the vintage, or if that absence of depth could be a result of high heat during transit.

bkarlan


quality posts: 46 Private Messages bkarlan
blakewoot wrote:Is it always totally obvious, though?



Wow, those bottles look awful!

I am no expert and when I have 1 out 3 bottles that are bad I already have a bad taste in my mouth before I even taste the others. From my limited experience, it has been pretty obvious.

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse..." - John Stuart Mill

burns72


quality posts: 9 Private Messages burns72
blakewoot wrote:So... is it totally obvious to the palate when I wine has been cooked? Or corked, for that matter? Or is it a sliding scale and a matter of judgement, like so much else?


I think it is obvious. My opinion, it's like taking a sip a milk (without smelling it beforehand) only to determine it has soured. You know it is sour as soon as it hits your tongue. Cooked/Corked wine to me is the same.

kylemittskus


quality posts: 231 Private Messages kylemittskus

If one bottle shows heat damage, I would assume all bottles in the shipment are damaged.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

noslensj


quality posts: 42 Private Messages noslensj
burns72 wrote:I think it is obvious. My opinion, it's like taking a sip a milk (without smelling it beforehand) only to determine it has soured. You know it is sour as soon as it hits your tongue. Cooked/Corked wine to me is the same.


I wonder about that. It doesn't seem to me that cooked/uncooked would be a binary situation, where the bottle gets heated then suddenly flashes over to "cooked" condition. Rather it seems to me that the damage would occur progressively, being barely perceptible at first then becoming progressively worse with continuing exposure or higher temperatures.

redwinefan


quality posts: 74 Private Messages redwinefan
blakewoot wrote:Is it always totally obvious, though? I received 3 bottles of cooked Page cellars last month in a total shipment of four bottles. There was a small amount of leakage from the top of the foil on all three. Woot replaced them (although the replacements have not arrived yet...)

You can see pictures of these bottles here.

But the fourth bottle looked fine, so I didn't ask for a replacement on that. I drank that bottle last week. When I opened it, the cork did have a deep red stain on the bottom, and was red half way up the side - but not all the way to the top like the "cooked" bottles. And the wine tasted... pretty good. Not knowing what it was supposed to taste like, and not being an expert, I was nagged by suspicions. Was the wine as good as it was supposed to be? Was it slightly cooked?

So... is it totally obvious to the palate when I wine has been cooked? Or corked, for that matter? Or is it a sliding scale and a matter of judgement, like so much else?



I had something very similar to your picture happen with my Cosentino shipments from Woot last summer which Woot thankfully refunded me for. I ended up sampling a bottle, and it had the flavor of stewed prunes which I quickly spit out.

"You need to invest in a corkscrew. Wine is for drinking." -- Peter Wellington

bsevern


quality posts: 109 Private Messages bsevern

I just opened some CdP from WTSO and it was cooked....tasted aweful. WTSO has great customer service (as does woot!) and they immediately provided a refund after I contacted them. Shame, as I was really looking forward to the CdP, but unfortunately WTSO does not provide any type of summer shipping options, aside from holds.

noslensj


quality posts: 42 Private Messages noslensj
bsevern wrote:I just opened some CdP from WTSO and it was cooked....tasted aweful. WTSO has great customer service (as does woot!) and they immediately provided a refund after I contacted them. Shame, as I was really looking forward to the CdP, but unfortunately WTSO does not provide any type of summer shipping options, aside from holds.


Yeah - I'm in my SIWTSOBM until I can postpone shipping to mid-October. Meaning no WTSO for another month and after that it would have to be a deal I would be willing to wait three months to receive.

cmaldoon


quality posts: 62 Private Messages cmaldoon
noslensj wrote:Yeah - I'm in my SIWTSOBM until I can postpone shipping to mid-October. Meaning no WTSO for another month and after that it would have to be a deal I would be willing to wait three months to receive.



I have a shipment of cab coming cross country from them right now that I have my fingers crossed about. It hit Kentucky last night and today is the coolest day in that region this week so I'm praying that it will be relatively unscathed. I am most worried about the midwest crossing happening today and tomorrow.

I will thoroughly vet the bottles once they arrive. I too have had good customer with WTSO and I am sure I'll have it taken care of.

2014 - 20 Btl. Fjellene (10 bot), Urraca Chard (10 bot)
Last purchase: 5/3/14

2013 - 75 btl. 2012 - 98 btl. 2011 - 112 btl. 2010 - 30 btl.
My Cellar

redwinefan


quality posts: 74 Private Messages redwinefan
noslensj wrote:Yeah - I'm in my SIWTSOBM until I can postpone shipping to mid-October. Meaning no WTSO for another month and after that it would have to be a deal I would be willing to wait three months to receive.



Yes, what's with them not giving the option to postpone until October on their site? I wanted to order something, but September is too iffy here in Austin.

"You need to invest in a corkscrew. Wine is for drinking." -- Peter Wellington

tercerowines


quality posts: 36 Private Messages tercerowines

First off, as others have pointed out, cooked and corked are COMPLETELY different things, and should not be confused.

Wines certainly can get 'cooked' in transport, but wine seems to be more 'durable' than most people give it credit for. I have read where folks had wines with corks pushing only to lay them down for a bit in a cellar and have them drink beautifully. Others have been gosh awful right from the get go.

The only way to know for sure if a wine got 'cooked' is to find out how it traveled to you - and for how long it was exposed to 'extreme' temperatures.

One person mentioned that he had liked the previous vintage, and this one just didn't seem up to par. That may not have been due to being cooked - it simply may have been vintage variation. In this case, I would try to get a bottle locally and compare them directly to see.

The scary thing is how wines that are going to retailers and restaurants are sometimes handled. It is not uncommon to see wines being taken off the back of a truck very late into a very hot day and delivered - in boxes with no insulation as well.

One thing many people look for is whether or not the capsule that covers the cork 'spins', for they feel if it does not, then the wine may have been corked. But there are times when very tight capsules are used and this is the case from the time is bottled.

In closing - many variables and not so easy to tell.

Cheers.

Larry Schaffer
tercero wines
www.tercerowines.com
larry@tercerowines.com

tiger7610


quality posts: 17 Private Messages tiger7610

Hi Larry, are you going to have an offer soon? I might be willing to try your wine again

tercerowines


quality posts: 36 Private Messages tercerowines
tiger7610 wrote:Hi Larry, are you going to have an offer soon? I might be willing to try your wine again



Tiger - you never know, do you?!?!?!? I'm sure that I will at some point, but perhaps not for at least a little while . . . .

That said, you could always just order directly from me - and perhaps I could pass along a 'wine.woot' discount to tide you over until the next offer (-:

Cheers!

Larry Schaffer
tercero wines
www.tercerowines.com
larry@tercerowines.com

tiger7610


quality posts: 17 Private Messages tiger7610
tercerowines wrote:Tiger - you never know, do you?!?!?!? I'm sure that I will at some point, but perhaps not for at least a little while . . . .

That said, you could always just order directly from me - and perhaps I could pass along a 'wine.woot' discount to tide you over until the next offer (-:

Cheers!



I got to figure out what I want. I had one good wine, and one weirdly tasting wine from the last offer, still 2 more bottles to try. I'm moving at the end of july so maybe something in august. Any recommendations for good summer easy sipping wines?

North316


quality posts: 107 Private Messages North316
tercerowines wrote:Tiger - you never know, do you?!?!?!? I'm sure that I will at some point, but perhaps not for at least a little while . . . .

That said, you could always just order directly from me - and perhaps I could pass along a 'wine.woot' discount to tide you over until the next offer (-:

Cheers!



I love those kind of personal offers and that's what makes woot great, unfortunately I can never take anyone up on them because winery shipping rates to Ohio eat away any "discount" received.

My CT
"Trust your homies on the net", Clark Smith.
R.I.P. Inkycatz - Feb. 2013

noslensj


quality posts: 42 Private Messages noslensj
tercerowines wrote:
One person mentioned that he had liked the previous vintage, and this one just didn't seem up to par. That may not have been due to being cooked - it simply may have been vintage variation. In this case, I would try to get a bottle locally and compare them directly to see.


I'm that person and my first inclination had been (and still is) to attribute the differences to vintage variations.

But my underlying question is when a wine "cooks", is there a typical impact on the wine? In the situation I'm pondering the recent shipment (of the 2008 vintage) lacks the structure and depth of the 2007, while still retaining much of the fruit. In a word it seems "thin" to me. Is loss of complexity and structure a typical when a wine "cooks"?

tercerowines


quality posts: 36 Private Messages tercerowines
noslensj wrote:I'm that person and my first inclination had been (and still is) to attribute the differences to vintage variations.

But my underlying question is when a wine "cooks", is there a typical impact on the wine? In the situation I'm pondering the recent shipment (of the 2008 vintage) lacks the structure and depth of the 2007, while still retaining much of the fruit. In a word it seems "thin" to me. Is loss of complexity and structure a typical when a wine "cooks"?



Wish it was that easy . . . 'cooking' a wine can show in many different ways. Oftentimes, it is with the aromas that it is most apparent - you can have elevated levels of Volatile Acidity or just 'elevated aromas' if that makes any sense. Oftentimes a wine will seem a bit thin and lacking structure - but I'm worried to use that in this case unless you know what a 'good' wine from that vintage tastes like. And in this case, I would not trust CellarTracker or anyone here - you really need to determine that for yourself.

Sorry I'm not more helpful - but I'm trying (-:

Cheers!

Larry Schaffer
tercero wines
www.tercerowines.com
larry@tercerowines.com

noslensj


quality posts: 42 Private Messages noslensj
tercerowines wrote:

Sorry I'm not more helpful - but I'm trying (-:

Cheers!


You're being very helpful! :-) This is giving me a good opportunity to report some observations and get some feedback. And as I'm writing this post I'm thinking my way through some things.

In one sense there are three general responses to my question:

1 - Yeah, what you're observing is totally typical of cooked wine.

2 - No, that's not at all what happens when wine cooks.

3 - Maybe, maybe not.

So it's educational for me to know that there isn't a simple answer. And that's an answer that makes intuitive sense to me.

On a general level I would presume that the fruitier and aromatic comments would be more heavily impacted by "cooking" because by their nature they would smaller, simpler (and hence more labile) compounds. Heating of the wine could logically affect those compounds in two ways. One would be to destroy or mute those compounds so there would be a loss of forward flavors. The other could be to break some of them down into more expressive components and separate others from more complex compounds so the wine might be more forward would be more apparent. So it certainly makes intuitive sense that the results could be variable.

In contrast the components that I'm attributing as "structure" and "depth" are likely larger more complex chemical components that should be more resistant to change. So if my thinking is reasonably on track structure should be less impacted.

And returning to the situation that triggered my question, that would suggest that the changes I'm noting are more likely due to vintage than to heat.

mschauber


quality posts: 40 Private Messages mschauber

When it comes to cooked wine, does the type of closure seem to make a difference? IE: Is a bottle closed with cork more likely to be cooked than on closed with a twist top?

--
Hey you, out there in the cold; Getting lonely, getting old; Can you feel me? - Pink Floyd/Roger Waters
My CT

cortot20


quality posts: 145 Private Messages cortot20
mschauber wrote:When it comes to cooked wine, does the type of closure seem to make a difference? IE: Is a bottle closed with cork more likely to be cooked than on closed with a twist top?



The conducter of temp. Is the glass bottle itself, the closure should have nothing to with it.
I had some screw topped bottles cooked in transit with no outside indicator to show that the wine was bad I had to simply open one up and try it. I knew they were cooked before opening any b/c it was 108 outside with no protection from the heat either on the truck or on my porch. It was just a matter of confirming what I already knew.

CT

kylemittskus


quality posts: 231 Private Messages kylemittskus
cortot20 wrote:The conducter of temp. Is the glass bottle itself, the closure should have nothing to with it.
I had some screw topped bottles cooked in transit with no outside indicator to show that the wine was bad I had to simply open one up and try it. I knew they were cooked before opening any b/c it was 108 outside with no protection from the heat either on the truck or on my porch. It was just a matter of confirming what I already knew.



This would be the only difference with cooked wine and closures. The cork wines will more likely show signs of cooking whereas screw tops will have no visible signs of being cooked.

Bummer actually, if heat damage is a concern but you had no intention of opening the bottle(s) for a while.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

jhkey


quality posts: 51 Private Messages jhkey
redwinefan wrote:Yes, what's with them not giving the option to postpone until October on their site? I wanted to order something, but September is too iffy here in Austin.



YOu can still order from WTSO, just put the hold date (October) in the special instructions, noting that their calendar doesn't go out far enough and it's too hot until that time. Works for me every summer.

"I double the doctor's recommendation of a glass and a half of wine a day and even treble it with a friend."
- Thomas Jefferson (CT)