Larry from Tercero gives us his thoughts:

tercerowines wrote:As far as 'discounts' go, if you're looking for 40% off and higher on woot+ deals, you will probably end up getting only 'close outs' as opposed to current offerings. I can tell you first hand that many wineries simply cannot make much money with a discount like that (when you get that kind of discount, please remember that not all the proceeds go directly to the winery!!!). Each winery needs to pay for shipping of our wines to wine.woot's warehouse so that they can consolidate stuff. And not all of us price our wines that high to start with (-:

Just another data point in the discussion . . .

Cheers!

tercerowines wrote:I simply cannot compete with the prices that wine.woot offers for shipping costs - no how, no way. They are able to cut costs waaay down based on volume - something I just can't do with my little ole wine label .. .

Cheers!

Here are my thoughts (not that you asked):

People saying that the offers aren't good enough "deals" because the % off isn't enough makes no sense to me. If you want a higher % off, then the winery can just increase their asking price and voilà! A "better" deal. IMO, the offer should be considered based on the following criteria. What wine is being offered? How much does it cost? Can I get it somewhere else cheaper? And do I want it for the price asked? I don't understand people saying that the offer isn't a good enough deal when there is nowhere else that sells the same wine for cheaper. Are there different wines available for cheaper? Perhaps. But just because an offer isn't one you're interested in doesn't make it a poor deal or a bad offer.

The other thing I don't understand is people complaining about the buy-in. It has to be kept in mind, again IMO, that the winery, WD, and Woot! all have to take their share. And then shipping needs to be considered. Offering a 4-pack for $35 leaves nothing on the proverbial bone for the aforementioned; and that's before the cost of shipping 4 bottles of wine is considered. Offering $60+ deals allows everyone to take their share and shipping costs to perhaps kind of, sort of, eh -- maybe barely, covered. If you want 2 bottles of wine, there are two options. A)Go to a grocery store and buy 2 bottles since shipping doesn't matter or B) make a friend and start splitting orders. Option C) trying to get around the convergence of math and business with regards to money just isn't viable.

All of this, is of course, my opinion.

kylemittskus wrote:Here are my thoughts (not that you asked):

People saying that the offers aren't good enough "deals" because the % off isn't enough makes no sense to me. If you want a higher % off, then the winery can just increase their asking price and voilà! A "better" deal. IMO, the offer should be considered based on the following criteria. What wine is being offered? How much does it cost? Can I get it somewhere else cheaper? And do I want it for the price asked? I don't understand people saying that the offer isn't a good enough deal when there is nowhere else that sells the same wine for cheaper. Are there different wines available for cheaper? Perhaps. But just because an offer isn't one you're interested in doesn't make it a poor deal or a bad offer.

The other thing I don't understand is people complaining about the buy-in. It has to be kept in mind, again IMO, that the winery, WD, and Woot! all have to take their share. And then shipping needs to be considered. Offering a 4-pack for $35 leaves nothing on the proverbial bone for the aforementioned; and that's before the cost of shipping 4 bottles of wine is considered. Offering $60+ deals allows everyone to take their share and shipping costs to perhaps kind of, sort of, eh -- maybe barely, covered. If you want 2 bottles of wine, there are two options. A)Go to a grocery store and buy 2 bottles since shipping doesn't matter or B) make a friend and start splitting orders. Option C) trying to get around the convergence of math and business with regards to money just isn't viable.

All of this, is of course, my opinion.

Well said, you are not alone!

kylemittskus wrote:
The other thing I don't understand is people complaining about the buy-in. It has to be kept in mind, again IMO, that the winery, WD, and Woot! all have to take their share. And then shipping needs to be considered. Offering a 4-pack for $35 leaves nothing on the proverbial bone for the aforementioned; and that's before the cost of shipping 4 bottles of wine is considered. Offering $60+ deals allows everyone to take their share and shipping costs to perhaps kind of, sort of, eh -- maybe barely, covered. If you want 2 bottles of wine, there are two options. A)Go to a grocery store and buy 2 bottles since shipping doesn't matter or B) make a friend and start splitting orders. Option C) trying to get around the convergence of math and business with regards to money just isn't viable.

I know this wasn't directly solely at my, but since this was a comment that I made, I will respond.

Trust me, I completely understand the rationale for this (I'm an accountant), but that still doesn't mean I have to like it. Yes, I could do splits, and have done many in the past, or I could buy disgusting wine I find in grocery stores here in Ohio, but I am here on this site, so I am discussing potential options on this site.

My point is that there used to be a lot of 3 or 4 bottle offers at 39.99 or 44.99 ($45 and $50 after shipping). I have not seen such offerings in quite some time now. I would like to see more of those size offerings, but I realize that it may not happen. But rather than offering 5 or 6 of the same bottle for 69.99 or 4 for $54.99 or $59.99, I would prefer to see either more verticals or more variety packs (ie a 6 pack of 2 bottles each of 3 different wines, 3 bottles of 2 different wines, or better yet, 6 different wines!).

I'm not sure that WCC would even have the space for this, but also a hold-shipment option could work out as well. Something along the lines of being able to buy smaller quantities of daily offerings (for instance buying only 2 bottles of a 6 bottle offering) and then holding them until you have purchased enough to make the shipping viable for Woot/WCC (total of 6 or 12 bottles or whatever). I would also be fine with saying that bottles could not be held more than 1 or 2 months and anything held that long would be automatically shipped and an upcharge applied. I would also be willing to pay a couple bucks more for shipping under a system like this because I would be able to get smaller quantities and better variety, and all at woot pricing.

I realize that this is truly a dream scenario, but if your going to dream dream big. This may actually not even be possible under the woot/winery/WCC arrangement since it is technically the wineries selling the wine, not woot.

kylemittskus wrote:

People saying that the offers aren't good enough "deals" because the % off isn't enough makes no sense to me. If you want a higher % off, then the winery can just increase their asking price and voilà! A "better" deal. IMO, the offer should be considered based on the following criteria. What wine is being offered? How much does it cost? Can I get it somewhere else cheaper? And do I want it for the price asked? I don't understand people saying that the offer isn't a good enough deal when there is nowhere else that sells the same wine for cheaper. Are there different wines available for cheaper? Perhaps. But just because an offer isn't one you're interested in doesn't make it a poor deal or a bad offer.

Also just a quick comment on this. I completely agree with this as well. I don't pay too much attention to size of the deal. I personally pay more attention to the per bottle price, because I buy in my comfort zone. While getting a great deal is awesome and keeps me coming back, one of the reasons I like woot is just because of the access it gives me to wines that I would not otherwise have access to, and with shipping prices that can easily be 5 times lower than direct winery purchases (shipping to Ohio). I'm in Ohio so we don't access to smaller producers. We get all of the big name producers, alot of which place quantity higher than quality.

I'm going to be in my comfort zone (generally <$20) regardless of what the % discount is, and will occasionally go higher if I perceive the value there or a unique offering which I want to try.

North316 wrote: But rather than offering 5 or 6 of the same bottle for 69.99 or 4 for $54.99 or $59.99, I would prefer to see either more verticals or more variety packs (ie a 6 pack of 2 bottles each of 3 different wines, 3 bottles of 2 different wines, or better yet, 6 different wines!).

This, I can get behind. I think verticals are hard because the winery ideally gets rid of the last vintage as the new one is released, but variety packs are nice and should be much easier to put together.

There are two other areas of problems specific to the Wine.Woot site.

#1) WW Gatherings Tab needed -- We have gatherings to enjoy wine we've purchased, both here on WW and other places (usually the wineries we've found via WW). I don't believe the other Woots have such gatherings on any regular basis. It fosters more community involvement, and allows us to discuss wine (and the wines sold on WW) more easily.

Instead of trying to find the needle in the haystack (or using CJ's posts and my re-posts of her posts), it would be handy to have a tab at the top for WW Gatherings.

There's room at the top, and we can move some of the current gathering threads in the World of Woot Wine over there.



#2) Wine.Woot Plus Deals need a separate Community Tab as well -- The wine products sell better with winery involvement (i.e., Posts from winemaker, staff, etc.).

The old Side Deals tab failed because they really didn't need a lot of discussion, unlike the Wine Plus deals. Having the tab specifically for discussing the Wine Plus deals will help us decide if we want to take the jump and buy.

Plus it gives us a place to discuss the wine, as well as give the winery someplace to chip in and help sell their wine. It seems to me that the more a winery participates in the discussion, the better their wines sell here.

We are overworking poor ThunderThi to death (at least until they automate the process, then she'll go back to sleeping in. ) with creating the threads for each new Wine Plus deal.

MarkDaSpark wrote:
We are overworking poor ThunderThi to death (at least until they automate the process, then she'll go back to sleeping in. ) with creating the threads for each new Wine Plus deal.

inkycatz

Cesare wrote:inkycatz

Yes, but her screen name doesn't get cut off like ThunderThi! But true, I need to give credit where credit is due.

Cesare wrote:inkycatz

It's on the list, that much I know.

There is some team effort going on here, I mean, TT actually provides a list of which plus events are coming to try to warn me. (I can also get this information, but if it changes at the very last minute, TT knows first, generally.) But since Plus change happens right after/as I arrive in the morning, there you go. I just am happy people are starting to use the threads, because discussion is very essential for some of these products (especially with wine, who else will tell me what I need to buy ASAP?).

Until the robots come to cart us away, anyways.

edited to add: I imagine this is what my robot will look like -

inkycatz wrote:I imagine this is what my robot will look like -

Meanwhile, you could make that your avatar.

ddeuddeg wrote:Meanwhile, you could make that your avatar.

i've always thought more like this

I do like the fact that wine.woot is the only subsite with pix for the plus deals.

Observations about Woots new site:

a) Busy site
b) Fewer messages/participants than before
c) Feels that the prices/bottle are somewhat higher than before
d) I don't even bother to check the Woot Plus - always seems too expensive for my wallet.
e) Messages don't have the same depth - maybe the regulars are turned off?

I for one, no longer check wine.woot every day.

joelsisk wrote:I do like the fact that wine.woot is the only subsite with pix for the plus deals.

All of the other sites had pictures at first when they each had only two deals. They were quickly changed to three deals and the pictures no longer fit in the drop-down frame. I'm guessing that will be fixed at some point.

ThunderThighs wrote:Those are great ideas. I've thought a Plus tab was a good idea myself. I sent them in but you might also consider the Beta Feedback button.

I already sent them both in that way. I think.

ddeuddeg wrote:Meanwhile, you could make that your avatar.

2nd that motion. Robo Cats = cool, Squid Cats = meh, not so much.

Wine Woot observations:
I think the WW dynamic has changed somewhat (possibly more) based on the model of offering one deal per day as opposed to one deal per week, or later two to three deals per week. Also, the lack of a LabRat program has caused me to not necessarily buy something that I might have otherwise. With my business requiring somewhat frequent travel, it is very difficult to keep in daily contact with Wine Woot, which was once a daily ritual.

Just my $0.02 worth.

txmusicman49 wrote:Wine Woot observations:
I think the WW dynamic has changed somewhat (possibly more) based on the model of offering one deal per day as opposed to one deal per week, or later two to three deals per week. Also, the lack of a LabRat program has caused me to not necessarily buy something that I might have otherwise. With my business requiring somewhat frequent travel, it is very difficult to keep in daily contact with Wine Woot, which was once a daily ritual.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Ditto. And yes, I have skipped buying some wines.

Observations/Opinions:
1) New site is busy, busy, busy, busy. By the time my eyes adjust, I've lost interest. Maybe Amazon felt the need to slam our senses because kids these days pay a little attention to a lot of things. Bad decision, IMHO.
2) woot plus, at least for wine.woot, has turned woot into another Rue La La/Invino/Lot18/etc. You don't have to be the same to fit in, this isn't high school.
3) Where have all the (ok, not all, but many) knowledgeable wine wooters gone? There's a very noticeable difference in the quality/depth of the deal discussions. Vintners are participating less and even some of the winery voicemails sound more like generic marketing speeches vs messages specifically for wooters that relate to that specific deal. Kyle??? (sorry, I can't remember your entire username) had to pull teeth just to get people to explain what they meant by "bad," and he did a great job. But it was like watching senators try to get Clinton to explain the definition of "is."
4) Cost per bottle has gone up, for most deals.
5) While the discount % number is meaningless, as Kyle??? pointed out, Amazon has placed it front and center b/c that is what our society believes is important. Kind of like convincing the world that air brushed big breasted women with a tight rear and perfect skin is what every woman should strive for. Such BS. But, bottle pricing is important and Amazon has changed the pricing model for wine.woot turning off many of the quality boutique vineyards that start by pricing their wine fairly and reasonably. More and more of the small vineyards we enjoy seeing on woot will go elsewhere where they can find more fairly structured pricing models. Maybe WD will chime in and explain the details of Amazons new pricing model for wine.woot.

Farm collectives, buying groups, and self sufficient communities are flourishing all over this country. If the loyal wooters wanted to get together and work with WCC, I bet we could replicate the old wine.woot (including all the great things I have heard about how things were before I joined,) and create a community, website & eCommerce platform that builds on what we all loved and have come to expect.

My main complaint is that it now takes me extra navigation in order to find out any substantive information about the wine. The technical and detailed information that used to be on the front page is now hidden behind "read more", and then you have to find the tab for "specs". If I was a new user of the site and didn't know to look for it, I would never be able to find it.

New issue: No Winery info shown for Woot Plus order info -- sent this off as feedback.

Okay, really annoying that Winery info is missing on some of my Order info for new orders. You have to click on the name and go to the page to find that out. It used to be part of the order title. I can look on my older orders and see it, but not on most of my new orders. 3 out of 4 new orders don't have the winery listed in the information.

3 out of 4 new orders don't show the winery name. Unlike the older orders.

Which is irritating if you want to start adding wine to Cellar Tracker. Which I really need to do.

jhkey wrote:My main complaint is that it now takes me extra navigation in order to find out any substantive information about the wine. The technical and detailed information that used to be on the front page is now hidden behind "read more", and then you have to find the tab for "specs". If I was a new user of the site and didn't know to look for it, I would never be able to find it.

This also seems to be a huge issue to me. I don't want to click through 3 pages to find basic info. Isn't Amazon all about 1-click?

kylemittskus wrote:This also seems to be a huge issue to me. I don't want to click through 3 pages to find basic info. Isn't Amazon all about 1-click?

For ordering, yes.

First of all, the new layout is simply incredibly cluttered. I have mild ADD, and it's almost painful to look at. What hits me is just a jumble of information - lots of stuff screaming at me. Useful web sites pare things back and give more prominence to the information that is most important, and play down information that is secondary.

In that vein, I love tab controls because they both organize information but also hide the information until someone selects the tab. Use more please.

The tab controls for the wine offering that show "Features", "Specs", "Winery", etc. are nice. But they should be on the front page. I shouldn't have to click through to reach them.

Please give more thought to organize information and not creating a page with about ten different items screaming for attention.

Winedavid39 wrote: i've always wondered why Sales tax ( the fact that it's baked into the price) is not factored into this overall discussion. *enjoy it while it lasts*

Probably because we had no idea they were paying our state sales tax for us!

But beyond that, are they even thinking about fixing the usability/design issues with the new site layout?

Winedavid39 wrote:Hello. i think i've written and re-written a long disertation but have crumpled them up and thrown them away.. for starters, check out this link.

http://wine.woot.com/forums/viewpost.aspx?postid=5048747

it's a good start to what is a multi-faceted set of circumstances that should be considered when discussing wine.woot. i'll be checking this thread all this week to discuss.

next topic. i've always wondered why Sales tax ( the fact that it's baked into the price) is not factored into this overall discussion. *enjoy it while it lasts*

In regards to the thread that you link, I have mixed feelings. While I realize you are incredibly hamstrung by the current woot shipping/pricing model of all you can ship for $5, as an accountant and as an auditor, I HATE the lack of transparency. I like to know what I am paying for something and why I am paying it.

I've always understood that shipping wine does not cost you $5, and that a portion of the cost is rolled into the price. The fact that this is now emphasized, whether it be because of summer shipping, or simply by you guys passing along more shipping cost, I do not like. Summer shipping used to be an upcharge of $2, it "feels" like prices are being increased more than that. It really feels like prices are being increase $2 per bottle and offers are for more bottles.

I realize that this may not at all be true, but it is just my perception. I personally would just prefer more transparency. Show me the price the I am paying for the wine, and show me the price I am paying for the shipping. $5 woot shipping is awesome, but woot per bottle prices are more important. With more shipping cost being built into the base price, prices have gone up.

The biggest problem I see with this is that in order for you guys to give us great per bottle prices and still build some shipping cost into them, you are now having to offer more large quantity offerings 4-5-6-12 bottles at a time, where in the past It seemed like there were a lot more orders of 3 bottles at $12-15 per or 4 bottles at $10-12.50 per. Now it seems like it is 3 at $20-25 per or 4-5 at $15-18 per. It seems like in most cases, in order for you to push shipping into the base price the total order cost need to be $60 or higher, whereas we used to be able to get a lot of orders for $45 or $50 shipped.

Times change, companies change, but it doesn't mean I can't wish they hadn't. Part of the reason I loved the smaller dollar deals was because I could broaden my knowledge and palate with very little investment. It is a lot easier to drop $40 or $45 on an unknown, then it is to drop $60 or $65, or more.

It won't happen because of the business model (buying from the wineries rather than from Woot), but as I mentioned above, I would love to be able to buy in lower quantities and combine shipping if necessary.

Winedavid39 wrote:i come back to the criteria of being the best deal around - that will never change. QPR RULES. Good and great wine for less. but pricing and discounting in some instances will be skewing higher.

This is my sticking point. Do I wish every wine you offered was $1/bottle? Hell yes. But as long as you're the cheapest place to buy a wine I want, I'm satisfied since it's the best it's going to get.

Winedavid39 wrote:i should add this as well. There appears to be alot of the pricing discussion being attributed to internal causes. some of that is true (summer shipping..) but as importantly is the external environment changes that are simultaneously occurring that will or is impacting every avenue in the wine industry.

demand versus supply. less wine equal higher pricing. We happen to be positioned VERY WELL for this ( the most efficient logistical struture, experience, track record, awesome community interaction drawing wineries) but all boats will be rising. and nobody will be immune. blame this on mother nature (and to a lesser degree China).

30% is the new 40%. 25% could very well be the new 35%.

i come back to the criteria of being the best deal around - that will never change. QPR RULES. Good and great wine for less. but pricing and discounting in some instances will be skewing higher.

As I said, I understand this, even if I don't like it. I will continue to buy the wines I like, and will buy in my perceived sweet spot. If, like you suggest, the quantities and overall per order price may go back to my sweet spot after summer shipping is concluded, I will be a happy camper and probably buy more, again. It may be a good thing anyway as I need to save money and actually drink some wine for a change.

There is no arguing that you still offer the lowest price, you just spoiled us with outrageously low prices for such a long time now.

In the meantime, you continue to anger me with SH and Wellington offerings of which I cannot refuse (and hopefully some Kent Rassmussen, where they heck is our KR wine???).

mschauber wrote:I totally follow you and I'm sure to some extent you are correct. But, the technique of rolling shipping costs into product pricing (something Amazon is famous for, remember when product prices used to be higher if you were logged in with a Prime account than if you weren't logged in?,) is a great way for companies to raise prices overall. I'd be willing to bet that by the time summer shipping season is over that the discussion of increased prices will be long forgotten and even with shipping costs lowered, we won't see a decrease in per bottle prices.

Now don't get me wrong, I now we get great deals here, often for wines we couldn't get elsewhere. Shipping costs are phenomenal. I'm just saying let's call a spade a spade. While I'm sure this isn't a forum where he would discuss it, that Peter is either already feeling a pinch from Amazon or will start very soon. Let's face it, Amazon is all about bottom dollar. Woot, while bottom dollar mattered, was very much about great deals and the community. Priorities at the very top have changed.

This is from the Wellington thread, but I figured I'd post it here since it's applicable and respond here since it's appropriate.

This is a sentiment I don't understand at all. Damn Amazon for trying to make money? They're a business! They should be about the bottom dollar. And they've done nothing to hurt the forum participation. That one is all on us, IMO (see below).

As far as the shipping thing, I'm sure Amazon can ship things for less than I could. However, I can almost guarantee that even Amazon can't ship 4 bottles of wine across the country via 2-day air for $5.

We are still getting wines at the best price we can get anywhere. That is, in my book, a great deal. This may change, but at this point, it hasn't. The current offer, where this was posted, is $16.25 for a bottle of wine shipped to your door via 2-day air. And the quality of the wine is excellent. How is this not a great deal? It's more expensive than last time, likely because last time was a case. This is 4 bottles. It's the opposite of what some people have been complaining about -- fewer bottles and variation. But when offered, the minor price hike is complained about.

Lastly, the forum and community participation: I can't speak for anyone except for myself, but I wonder how many people are not participating due to the same complaints being made over and over again, overtaking any winery participation or germane wine talk. "Amazon is the devil!" "We want smaller offers! But we want them to be cheaper than the larger offers!" "And the cake -- we want that, too!" I know I'm being a bit hyperbolic here, but I don't think any more than a bit.

I just don't buy into this Amazon is hiking prices conspiracy because there is no evidence of it at all. In fact, one of the recent offers was cheaper per bottle, although one extra bottle, than the previous offer! And this time it was being shipped in the summer whereas last time, it wasn't.

I guess I'm just missing the big deal. The new design does suck, though.

North316 wrote:There is no arguing that you still offer the lowest price, you just spoiled us with outrageously low prices for such a long time now.

If I'm understanding Dave's point correctly, it isn't just a function of summer shipping. The background is that the wine glut that has existed for several years is shrinking, which means that overall pricing in the market is increasing.

Prices are not going to go back down to where they were when many of us first got attracted here, because the market is different from what it was two years ago. There will be those who will say the difference is Amazon. To me that's irrelevant; the question is where I can get the best deals.

I will say that if I'm going to pop for four or six bottles of something unknown, I feel more confident doing so at wine.woot than I do at other sites. That's because of confidence that I have in the selection process for what appears here, and the community discussion.

noslensj wrote:If I'm understanding Dave's point correctly, it isn't just a function of summer shipping. The background is that the wine glut that has existed for several years is shrinking, which means that overall pricing in the market is increasing.

Prices are not going to go back down to where they were when many of us first got attracted here, because the market is different from what it was two years ago. There will be those who will say the difference is Amazon. To me that's irrelevant; the question is where I can get the best deals.

I will say that if I'm going to pop for four or six bottles of something unknown, I feel more confident doing so at wine.woot than I do at other sites. That's because of confidence that I have in the selection process for what appears here, and the community discussion.

My biggest question was answered with this comment from David:

"that said, does summer shipping play a role in the component of the deal? yes. you may see a trend in more bottles during this period to off set the overall logistics costs per bottle. "

As long as this statement is true, and the larger bottle offers isn't an ongoing trend after summer is over, I will be happy.

I don't mind the per bottle pricing we are receiving now, I just don't want to have to buy 6 bottles to get it. That is all I have been saying. Most often I would even pay another $1 or $2 per bottle for the ability to buy in a lower quantity.