chemvictim


quality posts: 3 Private Messages chemvictim
mother wrote:I think we need to separate professional/skilled careers from unskilled labor, because only unskilled labor could possibly make ends meet with unemployment.

$405/wk just doesn't go very far- I have a lot of trouble believing people used to earning skilled wages will sit around happily for what amounts to minimum wage...



I have known a few people who sat around, but generally, no. The unskilled folks are not going to get $405/wk, they're going to get less than that. Minimum wage workers are going to take home significantly less than that, too.

chemvictim


quality posts: 3 Private Messages chemvictim

From a facebook friend (just her own thoughts for the evening about taking God out of schools, not directed at a specific person or part of any discussion): "I mean this is a Christian Nation and if u ain't into that, go elsewhere."

I was afraid to ask where.

rpm


quality posts: 172 Private Messages rpm
chemvictim wrote:Affluenza, what a crock .

Seriously? Throw his sorry ass in jail.



Rush Limbaugh has an absolutely hilarious sketch on "affluenza" which sometimes plays online during commercial breaks. Catches the stupidity beautifully.

Wine-tasting in 8 words:
Pull lots of corks!
Remember what you taste!

kylemittskus


quality posts: 231 Private Messages kylemittskus
chemvictim wrote:I have known a few people who sat around, but generally, no. The unskilled folks are not going to get $405/wk, they're going to get less than that. Minimum wage workers are going to take home significantly less than that, too.



I'd love some real statistics, too, but I only have more anecdotal evidence. Here's a made-up example based on real people I taught:

Single mother, two kids, on unemployment, food stamps, and WiC, and has section 8 housing support. If this woman (let's say she's 23) is getting $1000/month cash from either welfare and/or unemployment, she's paying $400/month max for rent, and she's getting a significant amount of her grocery costs covered. No way would I ever want to live on such a small amount of money, but I live a very different life. My point is that there is a sustainable way to live using the system and only the system. How many people do this? I don't know. Almost all of my students did, though. The issue, I think, is that it's impossible, or very expensive, to actually follow up on everything. I had one student who lied about being homeless to max out on her food stamps. She lived with her mom who had Section 8 housing and got SSI.

I also think that it's difficult to take a single section of what is a HUGE issue. The unemployment issue is linked to so many other things that may be surprising: religious/cultural beliefs preventing sexual education talks leads to sex without condoms out of wedlock leads to kids. Rinse. Repeat.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

mother


quality posts: 15 Private Messages mother
kylemittskus wrote:
Single mother, two kids, on unemployment, food stamps, and WiC, and has section 8 housing support.



What do you mean 'that you taught'? Unemployment is incompatible with being a student...

rpm


quality posts: 172 Private Messages rpm
kylemittskus wrote: ....sex without condoms out of wedlock leads to kids. Rinse. Repeat.



And sex without condoms in wedlock does not lead to kids?

Wine-tasting in 8 words:
Pull lots of corks!
Remember what you taste!

rpm


quality posts: 172 Private Messages rpm
mother wrote:What do you mean 'that you taught'? Unemployment is incompatible with being a student...



Actually not - one could well be collecting unemployment and taking classes part time at a local community college.

And, in many states, full time students who had part time jobs who lose them can qualify for unemployment benefits. They just have to be less than forthcoming (shall we say) about their job-hunting efforts.

Also, in many states, full time students can qualify for various forms of government largess, including food stamps and section 8 housing.

Wine-tasting in 8 words:
Pull lots of corks!
Remember what you taste!

kylemittskus


quality posts: 231 Private Messages kylemittskus
rpm wrote:Actually not - one could well be collecting unemployment and taking classes part time at a local community college.

And, in many states, full time students who had part time jobs who lose them can qualify for unemployment benefits. They just have to be less than forthcoming (shall we say) about their job-hunting efforts.

Also, in many states, full time students can qualify for various forms of government largess, including food stamps and section 8 housing.



Yep.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

kylemittskus


quality posts: 231 Private Messages kylemittskus
rpm wrote:And sex without condoms in wedlock does not lead to kids?



Wait... is that how my daughter got here?

Children within wedlock are generally planned and have another person to potentially support them financially and in every other way. A significant number of my students were teen moms and single mothers. They were ill-prepared for their children and thus, the children suffered. This cycle is incredibly repetitive. Teen moms are more likely to have a child who will be a teen parent.

My point was that there are cultural paradigms that exacerbate all of the other problems we're talking about wrt welfare, unemployment, etc. No kids = less support and more time to work, look for work, go to school, etc. The thought of using a condom or BC to a lot of my students was completely foreign.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

mother


quality posts: 15 Private Messages mother
kylemittskus wrote:Yep.



Yep is not an answer, and lazy ass welfare queens don't go to school part time while working full time.

(And if that's what she was doing, then is there someoen better to try to help bootstrap?)

What did you mean by you taught her?

It's VERY difficult to get permission to be a student on unemployment, and if she only worked part time then the $50/wk she gets is the issue? RPM when was the last time you were on unemployment and tried to go to school? In fact everyone here who has been on unemployment for >26 weeks in one stretch at least once in their lives, raise there hands. Hopefully it's not only me...

chemvictim


quality posts: 3 Private Messages chemvictim

Wow, lots going on here this morning. A welcome distraction from work.

Merry Christmas rpm, long time no see.

Kyle, I'm pleased you're finally learning about the birds and the bees. Seriously though, I believe you about your students but it's still unbelievable. It's difficult to imagine a person being satisfied with the smallish amounts you can scam out of the gov't, but I guess if that's all you've ever known? It's downright shocking to me that there are women who would disregard contraception. Pregnancy is kind of a big deal, and that's before the baby is even born! Seems like something you'd want to be prepared for. I don't know how to fix it, though.

Mother, my husband had his 26 weeks several years ago, but that was before extended benefits. He would have been on it longer than that if it had been available. It did allow him more time to look, to try to find a job that was as good, or close, to the one he lost. There was not that sense of desperation, must take any job for any pay, kind of thing. I still think it needs to be temporary. What sort of time limit would you put on it, if you ruled the world?

klezman


quality posts: 123 Private Messages klezman
chemvictim wrote:It's downright shocking to me that there are women who would disregard contraception.



I think part of Kyle's point is that there are cultural and/or religious paradigms that essentially ignore the existence of contraception. Some are fundamentalist (insert religion here), while others are more of the "if you have sex, you ought to be prepared for the consequences" sort of thing. There are states that don't have much in the way of sex ed in their public school systems, too.

2014: 32 bottles. Last wine.woot: Scott Harvey Jana Cathedral 3 L
2013: 66 bottles, 2012: 91 bottles, 2011: 92 bottles, 2010: 74 bottles, 2009: 30 bottles, 2008: 3 bottles My CT

klezman


quality posts: 123 Private Messages klezman

Anybody hear about Megyn Kelly's rant of "indisputable facts" that both Santa Claus and Jesus are - verifiably, no less - white men?

Sigh. So. Much. Stupid.

2014: 32 bottles. Last wine.woot: Scott Harvey Jana Cathedral 3 L
2013: 66 bottles, 2012: 91 bottles, 2011: 92 bottles, 2010: 74 bottles, 2009: 30 bottles, 2008: 3 bottles My CT

kylemittskus


quality posts: 231 Private Messages kylemittskus
klezman wrote:Anybody hear about Megyn Kelly's rant of "indisputable facts" that both Santa Claus and Jesus are - verifiably, no less - white men?

Sigh. So. Much. Stupid.



I was going to post the same. And I think Sparky (?) said that a significant number of people trust Fox as a news source. Eek.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

rjquillin


quality posts: 174 Private Messages rjquillin

Thankfully, Megyn alone isn't Fox, and she did come from ABC. I've watched her exactly zero times.

CT

mother


quality posts: 15 Private Messages mother
chemvictim wrote: There was not that sense of desperation, must take any job for any pay, kind of thing. I still think it needs to be temporary. What sort of time limit would you put on it, if you ruled the world?



Yeah, so... I think there are structural problems with how we employ out of work Americans. I think the answer needs to be in making it more advantageous for companies to hire the unemployed than it is to move jobs overseas or use H1Bs.

Since that ain't happening... I think unemployment needs to last for whatever length of time the glut in employment is so that people do not have to throw away economically valuable skills. I also think it should be easier to switch to training/education when the glut is a really long time.

mother


quality posts: 15 Private Messages mother
rjquillin wrote:Thankfully, Megyn alone isn't Fox, and she did come from ABC. I've watched her exactly zero times.



Fox is not a news source. I personally can't stand their brand of News-fo-tainment, and that junk is a prime example of why.

Stupidity at that level causes visceral pain to me...

Edit: And don't bother attacking MSNBC, etc., same general issue there...

chemvictim


quality posts: 3 Private Messages chemvictim
klezman wrote:I think part of Kyle's point is that there are cultural and/or religious paradigms that essentially ignore the existence of contraception. Some are fundamentalist (insert religion here), while others are more of the "if you have sex, you ought to be prepared for the consequences" sort of thing. There are states that don't have much in the way of sex ed in their public school systems, too.



Sigh...I don't know. How can you simply ignore something that has such a huge impact on your future? Does. not. compute.

Sure, all of us have made a few bad decisions or had bad judgement a time or two, but it sounds like Kyle is talking about a complete disregard for...everything. Maybe I read too much into it.

chemvictim


quality posts: 3 Private Messages chemvictim
klezman wrote:Anybody hear about Megyn Kelly's rant of "indisputable facts" that both Santa Claus and Jesus are - verifiably, no less - white men?

Sigh. So. Much. Stupid.



She says now that she was trying to bring humor to the show. Mission accomplished, I thought it was hilarious. For what it's worth, the article she was talking about to begin with was also painfully stupid. spare millions of nonwhite kids the insecurity and shame that I remember from childhood? Really?

klezman


quality posts: 123 Private Messages klezman
chemvictim wrote:Sigh...I don't know. How can you simply ignore something that has such a huge impact on your future? Does. not. compute.



You gotta understand that I totally agree with this. Doesn't compute at all. Not even a little. But blindly following what some celibate dude in the Vatican says (for Catholics...replace with appropriate figure for Muslims, Jews, etc) doesn't require computation or logic. Just requires following what the dude says.

2014: 32 bottles. Last wine.woot: Scott Harvey Jana Cathedral 3 L
2013: 66 bottles, 2012: 91 bottles, 2011: 92 bottles, 2010: 74 bottles, 2009: 30 bottles, 2008: 3 bottles My CT

klezman


quality posts: 123 Private Messages klezman
chemvictim wrote:She says now that she was trying to bring humor to the show. Mission accomplished, I thought it was hilarious. For what it's worth, the article she was talking about to begin with was also painfully stupid. spare millions of nonwhite kids the insecurity and shame that I remember from childhood? Really?



Yeah, I watched all the clips. She didn't sound entertained or anything other than at least kind-of-angry. As opposed to the CNN discussion where they couldn't contain their laughter. The article on Slate may also be somewhat silly, but by attempting to skewer it with stupidity you just draw more attention to it.

And fwiw, I wouldn't mind if Santa was a penguin. That'd be kind of fun, actually. Then again, I have no stake in Santa being represented as anything in particular.

2014: 32 bottles. Last wine.woot: Scott Harvey Jana Cathedral 3 L
2013: 66 bottles, 2012: 91 bottles, 2011: 92 bottles, 2010: 74 bottles, 2009: 30 bottles, 2008: 3 bottles My CT

kylemittskus


quality posts: 231 Private Messages kylemittskus
chemvictim wrote:Sigh...I don't know. How can you simply ignore something that has such a huge impact on your future? Does. not. compute.

Sure, all of us have made a few bad decisions or had bad judgement a time or two, but it sounds like Kyle is talking about a complete disregard for...everything. Maybe I read too much into it.



You're not. The group of students I taught (mother, see below) had literally no understanding of cause and effect. The idea of using birth control has never been suggested to them. Their parents never discussed anything with them about sexual protection of any kind. The condoms are "I can't help it if he uses a condom." And the woman saying all of this is 21 with two kids. And she says she won't allow her daughter to go on BC and she can't imagine talking to her kids about it ever. And the guys in the equation are predictably gone and completely out of touch or are in horrible relationships with the mothers.

Mother: I taught vocational nurses and down at a medical vocational school for five years.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

chemvictim


quality posts: 3 Private Messages chemvictim
klezman wrote:Then again, I have no stake in Santa being represented as anything in particular.



But some people apparently do! Isn't that hilarious? White Tundra Frost?

chemvictim


quality posts: 3 Private Messages chemvictim
kylemittskus wrote:You're not. The group of students I taught (mother, see below) had literally no understanding of cause and effect. The idea of using birth control has never been suggested to them. Their parents never discussed anything with them about sexual protection of any kind. The condoms are "I can't help it if he uses a condom." And the woman saying all of this is 21 with two kids. And she says she won't allow her daughter to go on BC and she can't imagine talking to her kids about it ever. And the guys in the equation are predictably gone and completely out of touch or are in horrible relationships with the mothers.

Mother: I taught vocational nurses and down at a medical vocational school for five years.



That makes me incredibly sad, and angry.

Is there a religious element? I've known a few religious people who leave things in God's hands to the extent that they've completely abdicated responsibility for themselves. Disclaimer: this is a specific sort of person and is not at all intended to be a generalization of Christianity or any other faith.

Or are they just delusional? Or nobody ever taught them to think, or to respect themselves?

One thing for sure, I would not want them involved in my health care.

klezman


quality posts: 123 Private Messages klezman
chemvictim wrote:But some people apparently do! Isn't that hilarious? White Tundra Frost?



Exactly. I just kept thinking, who the f cares!

2014: 32 bottles. Last wine.woot: Scott Harvey Jana Cathedral 3 L
2013: 66 bottles, 2012: 91 bottles, 2011: 92 bottles, 2010: 74 bottles, 2009: 30 bottles, 2008: 3 bottles My CT

bhodilee


quality posts: 32 Private Messages bhodilee
klezman wrote:Yeah, I watched all the clips. She didn't sound entertained or anything other than at least kind-of-angry. As opposed to the CNN discussion where they couldn't contain their laughter. The article on Slate may also be somewhat silly, but by attempting to skewer it with stupidity you just draw more attention to it.

And fwiw, I wouldn't mind if Santa was a penguin. That'd be kind of fun, actually. Then again, I have no stake in Santa being represented as anything in particular.



Well, for one, wrong pole. For two, um, waddling is highly inefficient for being on a roof, though they've got sliding down things mastered.

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."

– George Bernard Shaw, author (1856-1950)

mother


quality posts: 15 Private Messages mother
kylemittskus wrote:Kyle says things we'd rather not read.



If you could have seen my face as I read this post...

Ended up on the same note as Chem!

MarkDaSpark


quality posts: 181 Private Messages MarkDaSpark
mother wrote:Fox is not a news source. I personally can't stand their brand of News-fo-tainment, and that junk is a prime example of why.

Stupidity at that level causes visceral pain to me...

Edit: And don't bother attacking MSNBC, etc., same general issue there...



Silly Mother ... there are NO News sources out there in that case. Because none of them lately have been truthful, nor strictly "Just the Facts". Each and every one has their own slant on the News.

Sadly, ALL of the majors (ABC, CBS, & NBC) have been caught fabricating and/or altering the truth in stories. So don't give me The Star Wars Holiday Special (1978) about Fox being so bad, when they are ALL BAD.


Someone has to put WD's kids thru college, but why does it have to be me!
*This post is for purposes of enabling only, and does not constitute any promise of helping pay for said enabling. It does indicate willingness to assist in drinking said wine.

MarkDaSpark


quality posts: 181 Private Messages MarkDaSpark
kylemittskus wrote:I was going to post the same. And I think Sparky (?) said that a significant number of people trust Fox as a news source. Eek.



Polls have shown that Fox is both the MOST Trusted and LEAST Trusted.

Depends on which megalomaniac (Obama or Boehner) you follow.


Edit:

Trust in News Media Falls to New Low in Pew Survey -- granted it's from 2009, but things haven't gotten any better.

2010 Gallup Poll -- trust even less than 2009.

2012 Gallup Poll -- how low can we go?


4th Annual TV News Trust Poll (2013) -- PBS is only source that is trusted (52%) more than distrusted (29%).


When it comes to asking Americans which single outlet they trust the most and least out of the ones we polled on, Fox News once again wins both honors. 34% say it's the one they trust the most, compared to 13% for PBS, 12% for CNN, 11% for ABC, 8% for MSNBC, 6% for CBS, and 5% each for Comedy Central and NBC. Fox News is the choice of 67% of Republicans, while Democrats basically split their allegiances four ways between ABC and CNN, both at 17%, and MSNBC and PBS, both at 16%.

Even more Americans identify Fox News as the outlet they trust the least- 39% give its that designation to 14% for MSNBC, 13% for CNN, 12% for Comedy Central, 5% for ABC and CBS, 3% for NBC, and 1% for PBS. 60% of Democrats give it their lowest marks while Republicans split between MSNBC (24%), CNN (19%), and Comedy Central (14%) on that front.



So yes, both most and least trusted.


Someone has to put WD's kids thru college, but why does it have to be me!
*This post is for purposes of enabling only, and does not constitute any promise of helping pay for said enabling. It does indicate willingness to assist in drinking said wine.

kylemittskus


quality posts: 231 Private Messages kylemittskus
MarkDaSpark wrote:So yes, both most and least trusted.



I'm with you. It's all sh*t out there. CNN has asshat stuff, too.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

mother


quality posts: 15 Private Messages mother
kylemittskus wrote:I'm with you. It's all sh*t out there. CNN has asshat stuff, too.



Are you two done agreeing with me yet?

mother wrote:
Edit: And don't bother attacking MSNBC, etc., same general issue there...




And to be clear Fox is worse than many at obfuscating what's meant to be news and what's meant to be opinion. It's up there with RT that way. MSNBC is hanging out over there too. CNN is a little better in that their news blurbs are usually identifiable, though they only cover the stories and angles that suit them...

So yeah, single sources of news is a big fail.

kylemittskus


quality posts: 231 Private Messages kylemittskus
chemvictim wrote:That makes me incredibly sad, and angry.

Is there a religious element? I've known a few religious people who leave things in God's hands to the extent that they've completely abdicated responsibility for themselves. Disclaimer: this is a specific sort of person and is not at all intended to be a generalization of Christianity or any other faith.

Or are they just delusional? Or nobody ever taught them to think, or to respect themselves?

One thing for sure, I would not want them involved in my health care.



Your questions are really simple, but the answers are quite complicated and I'm not sure I understand all of the moving parts. Here's my attempt (sorry ahead of time for my lack of brevity):

The short answer is all of the things you listed come into play. At the crux of this issue is, I think, the aversion to sexual education and prophylactics. At some point in the familial chain is a religious element that is affecting the decisions. However, those religious beliefs are not actually practiced outside of this one issue. For example, my students obviously had sex well before marriage, and with multiple partners. This doesn't bother me at all, by the way. But they have been taught that talking about sex or using birth control is absolutely, 100% not ok.

Exacerbating this issue is the lack of role models (I hate that term). A lot of my students' moms were single, teen moms. And a lot of their fathers are either not around, in jail, or are active in their lives, but their involvement is nothing but pernicious.

Young girl, no father figure, teen mom, no sex education outside of "you can't do it" and "you can't have BC," and young guys with the same type of home situations all add up to teen girls who end up pregnant, more often than not, multiple times and often with more than one guy. And the guys, as we have discussed before, have no real responsibility to their children or the woman. "My dad isn't around" becomes a history repeats itself kind of thing.

I had a student who was 19, had two kids (same father) and was getting married to another guy. Problem: the guy was in prison (not jail) and her mom was completely supportive. Her dad was not in the picture at all. They were going to have a "jailhouse wedding."

My point to all of this is that when we're talking about the unemployed, "the poor," those on welfare, etc., we aren't talking about a homogeneous group. I'm not advocating punishing the rest for the sins of a few. However, there are issues that need to (somehow) be addressed outside of things that mother has said that I agree with (getting unemployed Americans working, raising minimum wage, etc.).

The group of people I have a lot of experience with are the type of people who will, and to be very clear do, lie and cheat to live off of the system. I don't know how large of a slice of the pie these people represent, but I honestly don't believe it's a tiny percentage. Man, do I have stories...

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

chemvictim


quality posts: 3 Private Messages chemvictim

Kyle has destroyed my faith in humanity.

chemvictim


quality posts: 3 Private Messages chemvictim

This topic is thoroughly worn out, but this is too funny not to share. You're supposed to say Merry Christmas!

kylemittskus


quality posts: 231 Private Messages kylemittskus

As of now, it looks like Paul Ryan vs. Hillary Clinton. Of course, this is likely going to change, but if we were to vote right now and this was indeed the match-up, I'd feel again as if I had no good option. Ryan is great on fiscal issues, but he's a nutjob wrt social issues, IMO, of course. And I have no reason to think that Hillary is anywhere close to being a viable candidate.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

MarkDaSpark


quality posts: 181 Private Messages MarkDaSpark
mother wrote:And to be clear Fox is worse than many at obfuscating what's meant to be news and what's meant to be opinion. It's up there with RT that way. MSNBC is hanging out over there too. CNN is a little better in that their news blurbs are usually identifiable, though they only cover the stories and angles that suit them...

So yeah, single sources of news is a big fail.



You mean in your very humble opinion, right?

Because Fox is no worse in that regard (obfuscating) than any of them. And obviously, there are many that disagree with you, if they trust it.


Edit: Silly me, I'd put MSNBC and CNN ahead of Fox in the obfuscating facts vs. opinion area.


Someone has to put WD's kids thru college, but why does it have to be me!
*This post is for purposes of enabling only, and does not constitute any promise of helping pay for said enabling. It does indicate willingness to assist in drinking said wine.

MarkDaSpark


quality posts: 181 Private Messages MarkDaSpark
chemvictim wrote:This topic is thoroughly worn out, but this is too funny not to share. You're supposed to say Merry Christmas!






Although I thought (post/report on FB) this person was stupid for getting on to someone else for saying Happy Holidays and insisting they say Merry Christmas instead.


Someone has to put WD's kids thru college, but why does it have to be me!
*This post is for purposes of enabling only, and does not constitute any promise of helping pay for said enabling. It does indicate willingness to assist in drinking said wine.

mother


quality posts: 15 Private Messages mother
MarkDaSpark wrote:You mean in your very humble opinion, right?



No, I meant fact, but you could argue "in my experience" if you think the light stays on in the refrigerator when you close the door ;)

There is not a signle news source that I would say was reliable in that it reported all stories of equal importance/worth, and did so without at least taking great lengths to avoid injecting opinion into that reporting.

Isaac Asimov wrote:Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'


chemvictim


quality posts: 3 Private Messages chemvictim
kylemittskus wrote:As of now, it looks like Paul Ryan vs. Hillary Clinton. Of course, this is likely going to change, but if we were to vote right now and this was indeed the match-up, I'd feel again as if I had no good option. Ryan is great on fiscal issues, but he's a nutjob wrt social issues, IMO, of course. And I have no reason to think that Hillary is anywhere close to being a viable candidate.



Ryan is pretty hard on federal employees. I'd be worried about my financial health with that guy at the helm, plus the social issues. I haven't heard much about what he'd actually try to do regarding social issues, but somehow I doubt he'd be a champion of women's rights.

Hillary...I would prefer someone that conservatives wouldn't hate quite so much, if such a person exists.

mother


quality posts: 15 Private Messages mother
kylemittskus wrote:As of now, it looks like Paul Ryan vs. Hillary Clinton.



God, the 'pubs are going to make us elect another Democrat...