rjquillin


quality posts: 179 Private Messages rjquillin

I'm kinda with chem here. Grade and HS was no big thing to have a Christmas play in public schools. Nobody thought much about it and certainly didn't lady elf about it.
Jewish folks did their thing on their days, but I don't recall any boycotting either. This has gotten so far out of hand it's just stupid.

CT

mother


quality posts: 15 Private Messages mother
rjquillin wrote:I'm kinda with chem here. Grade and HS was no big thing to have a Christmas play in public schools. Nobody thought much about it and certainly didn't lady elf about it.
Jewish folks did their thing on their days, but I don't recall any boycotting either. This has gotten so far out of hand it's just stupid.



Just like barefoot and pregnant housewives who stayed home to take care of their husbands, and slavery, and queer bashing... (And 85% marginal tax rates :P)

Just because you used to do it, doesn't mean it was ok.

rjquillin


quality posts: 179 Private Messages rjquillin
mother wrote:Just like barefoot and pregnant housewives who stayed home to take care of their husbands, and slavery, and queer bashing... (And 85% marginal tax rates :P)

Just because you used to do it, doesn't mean it was ok.

Humm, nope, don't fit into any of those categories, then or now.

CT

mother


quality posts: 15 Private Messages mother

Edited post contents:

You didn't know it was wrong back then, you do now, so why not stop doing it instead of pretending it was Ok all along?

rjquillin


quality posts: 179 Private Messages rjquillin
mother wrote:No, but you fall into the "People who used to abuse the separation of church and state by forcing christianity on everyone in public school and now think the fact that non-christians were too scared of being totally ostracized to speak up meant it was ok" category which is similar in concept to those.

You didn't know better back then, you do now, so just cut it out.

I did not attend church then, I do not attend church now, nor did I force any form or religion on anyone. I had and have friends of many and no of faith then, and now. Sorry, I just don't fit the mold you seem to be trying to fit me into.

CT

mother


quality posts: 15 Private Messages mother
rjquillin wrote:I did not attend church then, I do not attend church now, nor did I force any form or religion on anyone. I had and have friends of many and no of faith then, and now. Sorry, I just don't fit the mold you seem to be trying to fit me into.


HUH? What are you talking about? You said it yourself at the top of this page, I didn't try to put you in any category:

rjquillin wrote:Grade and HS was no big thing to have a Christmas play in public schools. Nobody thought much about it and certainly didn't lady elf about it.
Jewish folks did their thing on their days, but I don't recall any boycotting either. This has gotten so far out of hand it's just stupid.



Or are we to try to read that "It was so horrible then, with the play and all, and it's gotten even worse now"??

bhodilee


quality posts: 32 Private Messages bhodilee
mother wrote:Sorry you were arguing like it's debatable how totally christian the event is, and it's got the word 'christ' right in it, that's the point there ;)

Sorry for the over-spleening.



Dude, my name has Christ in it! Course, I'm kind of a megalomaniac I guess ;-)

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."

– George Bernard Shaw, author (1856-1950)

bhodilee


quality posts: 32 Private Messages bhodilee
mother wrote:Just like barefoot and pregnant housewives who stayed home to take care of their husbands, and slavery, and queer bashing... (And 85% marginal tax rates :P)

Just because you used to do it, doesn't mean it was ok.



Just for the record, I'm 33% okay with the first part. Not so much the rest.

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."

– George Bernard Shaw, author (1856-1950)

chemvictim


quality posts: 3 Private Messages chemvictim

Hmmm...for my part, this kind of thing (the Christmas stuff) was totally normal for me growing up. I don't attend church now (that's a whole 'nother issue that you do not want to hear about), but I don't find it shocking that communities still operate this way. When I was a kid, no one cared about this or at least they kept quiet about it. Now, I think maybe people are assuming that still no one cares except for militant, cranky, sand-in-the-vagina atheists. Clearly that's not the case.

chemvictim


quality posts: 3 Private Messages chemvictim
bhodilee wrote:Just for the record, I'm 33% okay with the first part. Not so much the rest.



I have a house husband, it's pretty nice. He's not barefoot or pregnant though. Thankfully.

kylemittskus


quality posts: 231 Private Messages kylemittskus
rjquillin wrote:I'm kinda with chem here. Grade and HS was no big thing to have a Christmas play in public schools. Nobody thought much about it and certainly didn't lady elf about it.
Jewish folks did their thing on their days, but I don't recall any boycotting either. This has gotten so far out of hand it's just stupid.



"But we've always fed Christians to the lions."

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

mother


quality posts: 15 Private Messages mother
chemvictim wrote:I have a house husband, it's pretty nice. He's not barefoot or pregnant though. Thankfully.



Thankfully ;)

I think part of this dissonance here is that you (rj, etc.) are trying to equate "indifferent non practicing Christian" and "non-Christian."

When you are "non-Christian" you notice and feel ostracized EVERY single time you being the wrong religion is somehow made obvious via public institution. Particularly as a kid, it's really not this subtle thing you would like to think it is.

However I don't think any of that really matters- the law is very clear about the separation of church and state. It's never should have been permitted.

tytiger58


quality posts: 74 Private Messages tytiger58
mother wrote:Edited post contents:

You didn't know it was wrong back then, you do now, so why not stop doing it instead of pretending it was Ok all along?



I dig the way mother tries to make his point, hit someone so hard over the head with his logic that they cower and stop arguing. It reminds me of what William Shirer chronicled about the tactics Hitler used in his accent to power in "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" (not that mother is any Hitler!

Anyway I always find it funny when the anti religion people fight with other people about Christmas/Christians in schools or government.

Why aren't you guys writing your President or any President who ever held office? they have the pulpit and all they do is publicly attend church every Sunday, they are not helping your cause??

And yes I attend church every once in a while and my kids went to Catholic school for most of their lives, and they have all done well.

Do any of you have kids?? and if so did you complain to the School about the pledge or singing christian songs?

Fire away.. if I offended anyone I don't really give a crap

What contemptible scoundrel stole the cork from my lunch? ~ W. C. Fields

“Freedom is something that dies unless it's used” Hunter S Thompson




mother


quality posts: 15 Private Messages mother
tytiger58 wrote:..ty loses via Godwin's law...

Do any of you have kids?? and if so did you complain to the School about the pledge or singing christian songs?



I have not saddled you people with my offspring yet, but I disagree with the Catholic agenda driven addition of "Under god" to the pledge, and I would sue the crap out of the school district, board, and administrators if when informed they were making my kids sing christian songs they instead of correcting the illegal practice, continued it.

chemvictim


quality posts: 3 Private Messages chemvictim
mother wrote:Thankfully ;)

I think part of this dissonance here is that you (rj, etc.) are trying to equate "indifferent non practicing Christian" and "non-Christian."

When you are "non-Christian" you notice and feel ostracized EVERY single time you being the wrong religion is somehow made obvious via public institution. Particularly as a kid, it's really not this subtle thing you would like to think it is.

However I don't think any of that really matters- the law is very clear about the separation of church and state. It's never should have been permitted.



You might be confused about which category I'm in now, but clearly I did not grow up as a non-Christian and I didn't experience that viewpoint. My point was that we need to be listening to our friends when they tell us these things. I am listening to you. My first instinct was that this thing was no big deal, but I am being educated.

kylemittskus


quality posts: 231 Private Messages kylemittskus
tytiger58 wrote:I Why aren't you guys writing your President or any President who ever held office? they have the pulpit and all they do is publicly attend church every Sunday, they are not helping your cause??



I snipped this part because it's easily answered and I a) don't disagree with you in some parts and b) addressed the "we always did it" argument above.

Because (most) atheists don't have a cause. Contrary to popular conservative headlines like "Atheists continue war on religion," there isn't any attempts to stop religion. Rather, stopping religion, let alone a specific religion, to be advocated by or organized by or sponsored by the govt has nothing to with religion and everything to do with keeping an important part of the constitution in public policy.

Removing all the emotion and hyperbole-on-both-sides-BS and such, some of us are actually comfortable with a 100% govt entity sponsoring (better word?) a religion-specific activity? Please try removing the attachment you may have based on the fact that you practice or believe in the religion we're discussing.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

mother


quality posts: 15 Private Messages mother
chemvictim wrote:You might be confused about which category I'm in now, but clearly I did not grow up as a non-Christian and I didn't experience that viewpoint. My point was that we need to be listening to our friends when they tell us these things. I am listening to you. My first instinct was that this thing was no big deal, but I am being educated.



In the scheme of "big deals" this is decidedly not a big deal... You are not going to feel like you belong here during Christmas season (labor day until new years now?) if you're not celebrating christmas with a big decorated tree, and house decorations, and presents you can't afford (who the eff gives a Lexus as a present?), there is no escaping that :P However that is no excuse to make things even worse...

That's all about right vs wrong, and people get funny around those kinds of topics.

What I fail to understand is how the pretty clear-cut issue of legal vs illegal in this case seems to cause so much confusion, and that confusion seems to sow apologists "you know since it's not a big deal". *shrug*

rjquillin


quality posts: 179 Private Messages rjquillin

I thought I'd brush up a bit on my history.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=90

http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/tserve/eighteen/ekeyinfo/sepchust.htm

http://www.tgm.org/mythofseparation.html

Likely to provoke more discussion.

CT

klezman


quality posts: 127 Private Messages klezman
chemvictim wrote:Does a Jewish kid want to sing Christmas songs?



No. Nor does he want to be subjected to Christmas music everywhere he goes for 3-8 weeks (depending on the public venue). He also dislikes that all of winter has been co-opted by Christmas. And that calling a Christmas tree a "holiday tree" somehow makes it "non-religious".

/end rant

Edit: Do those who were raised Christian (secular or practicing) think Christmas has transcended religion and is now a cultural holiday like Thanksgiving?

2014: 42 bottles. Last wine.woot: 2012 Iron Horse Estate Chardonnay
2013: 66 bottles, 2012: 91 bottles, 2011: 92 bottles, 2010: 74 bottles, 2009: 30 bottles, 2008: 3 bottles My CT

chemvictim


quality posts: 3 Private Messages chemvictim
mother wrote:What I fail to understand is how the pretty clear-cut issue of legal vs illegal in this case seems to cause so much confusion, and that confusion seems to sow apologists "you know since it's not a big deal". *shrug*



I tend to think that issues like this one are not that clear-cut, and so we balance that with the amount of harm done (or potential to be done). You can take that with a grain of salt, as I tend to think many legal issues are not clear-cut. I'm not a constitutional scholar, but when I read the text I find lots of room for interpretation. Meh. I'm not a lawyer.

tytiger58


quality posts: 74 Private Messages tytiger58
mother wrote:I have not saddled you people with my offspring yet, but I disagree with the Catholic agenda driven addition of "Under god" to the pledge, and I would sue the crap out of the school district, board, and administrators if when informed they were making my kids sing christian songs they instead of correcting the illegal practice, continued it.



IIRC when I went to public school we had to sing Christian songs, Jewish songs, and a few others. I don't recall my parents giving a rip which religions songs we were singing, as I did not when my kids went to school. I don't really care what they are singing as long as they are singing

But if people want too fight or feel infringed on by a Nativity scene or a star of David or a Budda on a government building...go for it! It's kind of a free country.

Hey don't listen to me i'm just another Krampus who by the way was raised by Atheists.

Edit: God rest there souls...ooops sorry if I offended not.

What contemptible scoundrel stole the cork from my lunch? ~ W. C. Fields

“Freedom is something that dies unless it's used” Hunter S Thompson




MarkDaSpark


quality posts: 186 Private Messages MarkDaSpark
mother wrote:I have not saddled you people with my offspring yet, but I disagree with the Catholic agenda driven addition of "Under god" to the pledge, and I would sue the crap out of the school district, board, and administrators if when informed they were making my kids sing christian songs they instead of correcting the illegal practice, continued it.



Point of Order ... while the Knights of Columbus is the largest Catholic fraternal service organization, it is not part of the Catholic Church. While they were recognized for initiating it, you can blame the Presbyterian George MacPherson Docherty who used it to President Eisenhower. Eisenhower is the one who pushed and authorized it, not the Catholic Church.

It was also pushed because the godless Communists would presumably be unable to say "Under God" while reciting the Pledge.


Oh, and by the way, religious songs are allowed, but only when taught via historical perspective (as ruled by the Courts). After all, for most of current Western history, those were the only songs allowed, so in teaching Music History, you have to cover them.


Someone has to put WD's kids thru college, but why does it have to be me!
*This post is for purposes of enabling only, and does not constitute any promise of helping pay for said enabling. It does indicate willingness to assist in drinking said wine.

chemvictim


quality posts: 3 Private Messages chemvictim
klezman wrote:No. Nor does he want to be subjected to Christmas music everywhere he goes for 3-8 weeks (depending on the public venue). He also dislikes that all of winter has been co-opted by Christmas. And that calling a Christmas tree a "holiday tree" somehow makes it "non-religious".

/end rant

Edit: Do those who were raised Christian (secular or practicing) think Christmas has transcended religion and is now a cultural holiday like Thanksgiving?



I'm pretty sure 99% of us don't want to be subjected to that music. God, it's awful. I do enjoy my Christmas/holiday/Saturnalia tree, although I give zero decorates what anyone calls it. For me, Christmas has been a cultural holiday for as long as I can remember, even when I was a little church-going kid. If I had to label myself these days I'd call myself a pantheist, and I still plan to have a tree if I can ever get around to buying and decorating one. The "Christmas" tree has never had jack The Star Wars Holiday Special (1978) to do with Jesus, as far as I know. Maybe if there are any practicing Christians around they can weigh in.

bhodilee


quality posts: 32 Private Messages bhodilee
klezman wrote:No. Nor does he want to be subjected to Christmas music everywhere he goes for 3-8 weeks (depending on the public venue). He also dislikes that all of winter has been co-opted by Christmas. And that calling a Christmas tree a "holiday tree" somehow makes it "non-religious".

/end rant

Edit: Do those who were raised Christian (secular or practicing) think Christmas has transcended religion and is now a cultural holiday like Thanksgiving?



Hell.yes

Can you have it both ways? Sure a lot of people go to Church that day that may only see a church once a year, but for me, it's a completely cultural thing anymore. Course I didn't grow up Christian and don't really identify with any religion since it wasn't important in our house growing up. Edit: I do however love the new Pope, I'm not gonna become a Catholic, but I adore the guy.

Hell, most of the "Christmas" songs I hear are actually songs about winter that have become associated with Christmas, cause ya know, Christmas is three days into winter.

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."

– George Bernard Shaw, author (1856-1950)

bhodilee


quality posts: 32 Private Messages bhodilee
tytiger58 wrote:IIRC when I went to public school we had to sing Christian songs, Jewish songs, and a few others. I don't recall my parents giving a rip which religions songs we were singing, as I did not when my kids went to school. I don't really care what they are singing as long as they are singing

But if people want too fight or feel infringed on by a Nativity scene or a star of David or a Budda on a government building...go for it! It's kind of a free country.

Hey don't listen to me i'm just another Krampus who by the way was raised by Atheists.

Edit: God rest there souls...ooops sorry if I offended not.



horribly offended, but only because it's their, not there

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."

– George Bernard Shaw, author (1856-1950)

rjquillin


quality posts: 179 Private Messages rjquillin
klezman wrote:No. Nor does he want to be subjected to Christmas music everywhere he goes for 3-8 weeks (depending on the public venue). He also dislikes that all of winter has been co-opted by Christmas. And that calling a Christmas tree a "holiday tree" somehow makes it "non-religious".

/end rant

Edit: Do those who were raised Christian (secular or practicing) think Christmas has transcended religion and is now a cultural holiday like Thanksgiving?

We agree more than whine! I do kinda like some of the music, but it's just so incessant however.
Not sure about a cultural holiday, seems more like a capitalists feast. I absolutely detest the seemingly never-ending earlier creep of crap in stores.

CT

kylemittskus


quality posts: 231 Private Messages kylemittskus
klezman wrote:Edit: Do those who were raised Christian (secular or practicing) think Christmas has transcended religion and is now a cultural holiday like Thanksgiving?



I was actually going to post this exact thing. Christmas songs (about Christmas, not anything religious) are, IMO, a cultural thing and not a religious one. However, the article quotes people and announcements talking about Jesus and such. Way different.

I'm still waiting for an explanation as to how it's ok for a govt entity to advocate a specifically religious (not just a cultural Christmas-themed) event.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

chemvictim


quality posts: 3 Private Messages chemvictim
kylemittskus wrote:I'm still waiting for an explanation as to how it's ok for a govt entity to advocate a specifically religious (not just a cultural Christmas-themed) event.



I think it's tough because a lot of choir music is religious, and I don't see how a student would really learn about choir if everything with religious subtext was taken out. Also, wintertime and Christmas are hopelessly intertwined culturally, like it or not.

I think it just depends on how much of this concert is Jesus and how much is performance, and I don't know the answer to that. The fact that it's in a church might not mean much, since there are secular reasons for doing it there. I'm not sure that I see a school expressing an endorsement of Mormonism by doing this concert. I just don't see it as clear-cut. I was skimming through this Law Stuff . Starting at page 1149 there are some interesting tidbits which might be relevant, but they are taking a lot of factors into account. Not simple.

tytiger58


quality posts: 74 Private Messages tytiger58
kylemittskus wrote:I was actually going to post this exact thing. Christmas songs (about Christmas, not anything religious) are, IMO, a cultural thing and not a religious one. However, the article quotes people and announcements talking about Jesus and such. Way different.

I'm still waiting for an explanation as to how it's ok for a govt entity to advocate a specifically religious (not just a cultural Christmas-themed) event.



First world problems I wonder how Nelson Mandela would have handled this problem of Nativity scenes or the star of David on the White House lawn? BTW how is it possible that the passing of one of the most tolerant and peace loving statesmen of our time does not get one word mentioned in this thread??

What contemptible scoundrel stole the cork from my lunch? ~ W. C. Fields

“Freedom is something that dies unless it's used” Hunter S Thompson




bhodilee


quality posts: 32 Private Messages bhodilee
kylemittskus wrote:I was actually going to post this exact thing. Christmas songs (about Christmas, not anything religious) are, IMO, a cultural thing and not a religious one. However, the article quotes people and announcements talking about Jesus and such. Way different.

I'm still waiting for an explanation as to how it's ok for a govt entity to advocate a specifically religious (not just a cultural Christmas-themed) event.



It probably isn't, but I think there comes a point where you just have to get over it. We have a prayer before our board meeting. Drives me batshit because we're government! However, it's small town Nebraska so while I don't agree with it, I also don't care as I'm probably the only person who has an issue with it.

I'm pretty sure the President has a big formal Christmas Tree lighting thing right? Highly doubt they light Menorahs in the same big public fashion or whatever the hell it is Muslims do for whatever the hell their holidays are. Point is, yeah, it's not cool, but I refuse to get all up in arms about Christmas stuff. The whole 10 commandments thing in Oklahoma though....no.

Also, I find it hilarious the Church of Satan or whatever is petitioning to have a monument there also, something for kids to play on they said.

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."

– George Bernard Shaw, author (1856-1950)

kylemittskus


quality posts: 231 Private Messages kylemittskus
tytiger58 wrote:First world problems I wonder how Nelson Mandela would have handled this problem of Nativity scenes or the star of David on the White House lawn? BTW how is it possible that the passing of one of the most tolerant and peace loving statesmen of our time does not get one word mentioned in this thread??



Nothing to debate wrt to him. Everyone posts contentious issues to, I hope, learn how the other side sees the issue and why.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

coynedj


quality posts: 7 Private Messages coynedj
klezman wrote:Edit: Do those who were raised Christian (secular or practicing) think Christmas has transcended religion and is now a cultural holiday like Thanksgiving?



The end-year holiday was explicitly Christian in a lot of the world for a long time. I don't think it really is any more. We seem to have two holidays that happen to fall on the same day and are called by the same name.

One holiday has trees and elves and chestnuts roasting on open fires. Malls and dentist offices are filled with the sounds of the songs celebrating this holiday, and our kids want presents presents presents. They have no thought of getting gold, frankincense and myrrh (at least mine never did). It's not a religious event.

The other holiday is still explicitly Christian, and is celebrated by a portion of the population as such. Churches do play a big part in these celebrations.

Public school choirs can celebrate the first holiday all they like, as far as I'm concerned. They should not celebrate the second. It's almost inevitable that some elements of these celebrations will mix - a song or two of a religious nature sneaking into that school choir's repertoire doesn't bother me. But there is a line that should not be crossed.

That line has not always been at the same place over time and over different communities, and I would have a hard time defining exactly where it is. Kind of a "I know it when I see it" situation. Sending the school choir to sing exclusively Christian songs in a church at an event clearly defined as being Christian in nature sure seems to be beyond the line to me.

I started out on Burgundy but soon hit the harder stuff. Bob Dylan, Just Like Tom Thumb's Blues

How on earth did I get 7 QPs?

tytiger58


quality posts: 74 Private Messages tytiger58
kylemittskus wrote:Nothing to debate wrt to him. Everyone posts contentious issues to, I hope, learn how the other side sees the issue and why.



Right! Not sure if i'm the other side but I don't give a rip how many crosses/Budda's/ or star of David's I have or my children have to see during the holidays

I have to go pull paperwork and see why the friggin franchise tax board want's another 1k of the money I work hard for @#!X#@

What contemptible scoundrel stole the cork from my lunch? ~ W. C. Fields

“Freedom is something that dies unless it's used” Hunter S Thompson




kylemittskus


quality posts: 231 Private Messages kylemittskus

I absolutely agree with this ^^^.

Edit: damnit, tyger! I agree with what Ed said.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

bhodilee


quality posts: 32 Private Messages bhodilee
tytiger58 wrote:Right! Not sure if i'm the other side but I don't give a rip how many crosses/Budda's/ or star of David's I have or my children have to see during the holidays

I have to go pull paperwork and see why the friggin franchise tax board want's another 1k of the money I work hard for @#!X#@



I think we look for reasons to be angry sometimes. Christmas as a dual holiday, I like this concept (because it really is). This is also why I don't get too worked up about Christmas in school (provided it isn't the JESUS style).

Also, I got a chuckle out of your tax statement. My first thought was, you do WHAT to earn your money

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."

– George Bernard Shaw, author (1856-1950)

coynedj


quality posts: 7 Private Messages coynedj
kylemittskus wrote:I absolutely agree with this ^^^.

Edit: damnit, tyger! I agree with what Ed said.



If you mean me, my name's not Ed. The "e" is part of my last name. The "d" stands for Doug, if you must know.

I started out on Burgundy but soon hit the harder stuff. Bob Dylan, Just Like Tom Thumb's Blues

How on earth did I get 7 QPs?

kylemittskus


quality posts: 231 Private Messages kylemittskus
coynedj wrote:If you mean me, my name's not Ed. The "e" is part of my last name. The "d" stands for Doug, if you must know.



Doug it is.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

tytiger58


quality posts: 74 Private Messages tytiger58
coynedj wrote:If you mean me, my name's not Ed. The "e" is part of my last name. The "d" stands for Doug, if you must know.



Kyle is often confused and he is a fruit cake for not agreeing with me

I am hurt and offended by that so I will drink all of his wine. And bhodilee I can't tell you what I work hard for, I might incriminate myself

Edit: dig the filter..fruit cake haha

What contemptible scoundrel stole the cork from my lunch? ~ W. C. Fields

“Freedom is something that dies unless it's used” Hunter S Thompson




kylemittskus


quality posts: 231 Private Messages kylemittskus
tytiger58 wrote:Kyle is often confused and he is a fruit cake for not agreeing with me

I am hurt and offended by that so I will drink all of his wine. And bhodilee I can't tell you what I work hard for, I might incriminate myself

Edit: dig the filter..fruit cake haha



For a second, I legitimately thought that you typed out "fruit cake."

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

tytiger58


quality posts: 74 Private Messages tytiger58
kylemittskus wrote:For a second, I legitimately thought that you typed out "fruit cake."



I guess the "D" word is not acceptable around here

What contemptible scoundrel stole the cork from my lunch? ~ W. C. Fields

“Freedom is something that dies unless it's used” Hunter S Thompson