chemvictim


quality posts: 3 Private Messages chemvictim
MarkDaSpark wrote:I try to leave, but they keep pulling me back in ...

Number Of Companies/Unions Excluded From Obamacare Hits 222

Republicans move to halt ObamaCare 'bailout' for angry unions

Obama Wants ObamaCare Subsidies for Labor Unions

Obama announces "Obamacare exclusions"

Okay, the last one is a joke. I think.



I'm taking this seriously, but the first link is a report from 2010 and it says the waivers were only good for a year. The next two speculate that the white house is considering some deal with unions, it's very vague. The last one, well...

Is this stuff for real? I've read so much crap that I hesitate to believe anything.

chemvictim


quality posts: 3 Private Messages chemvictim
rjquillin wrote:You forgot, Congress exempted themselves and staffers.



Not really.

They got kicked off employer-sponsored insurance and onto the exchanges. I also read somewhere that federal employees are exempted. If "exempted" means kick onto the exchanges, I have not been. If "exempted" means same old plan you had last year, I am exempted.

rjquillin


quality posts: 174 Private Messages rjquillin
chemvictim wrote: Not really.

They got kicked off employer-sponsored insurance and onto the exchanges. I also read somewhere that federal employees are exempted. If "exempted" means kick onto the exchanges, I have not been. If "exempted" means same old plan you had last year, I am exempted.

A different opinion from the WSJ
They are getting preferential treatment.

CT

chemvictim


quality posts: 3 Private Messages chemvictim
rjquillin wrote:A different opinion from the WSJ
They are getting preferential treatment.



It's a mess. It looks like they were put on the exchanges, which isn't appropriate because the exchanges are for people without employer-provided health insurance. Right? So it seems to me, they should not be on the exchanges at all. According to the link I posted, a Republican put the language in that caused them to go on the exchanges. It's stupid and it makes no sense.

edit: also, that article is ridiculously biased. I read about the UPS thing - they did not cut benefits entirely for spouses.

cmaldoon


quality posts: 62 Private Messages cmaldoon
MarkDaSpark wrote:One last time ... if you or I don't have money, we stop buying. If we don't have anything left on our credit limit, we stop using our credit cards.

We don't get to throw tantrums until our banks raise our credit limits or put more money in our bank accounts. We have to tighten our belts and suck it up.

It's time to suck it up.



I'm sorry Mark but your analogy is badly flawed.

If you as a person curtail your spending it does not significantly impact your income. You cannot say this about the US government.

You as a person have a hard defined credit limit set by someone else. The US government credit limit is essentially imaginary and wholy arbitrary.

I fully agree that we should be curtailing spending, but we should be doing it in a smart manner which may mean we take several years or up to a decade to get back to non deficit spending

2014 - 20 Btl. Fjellene (10 bot), Urraca Chard (10 bot)
Last purchase: 5/3/14

2013 - 75 btl. 2012 - 98 btl. 2011 - 112 btl. 2010 - 30 btl.
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MarkDaSpark


quality posts: 181 Private Messages MarkDaSpark
cmaldoon wrote:I'm sorry Mark but your analogy is badly flawed.

If you as a person curtail your spending it does not significantly impact your income. You cannot say this about the US government.

You as a person have a hard defined credit limit set by someone else. The US government credit limit is essentially imaginary and wholy arbitrary.

I fully agree that we should be curtailing spending, but we should be doing it in a smart manner which may mean we take several years or up to a decade to get back to non deficit spending



Oh! Memes Galore!. I've got to reply to this idiocy.

#1 - The US Credit is not "imaginary and wholy arbitrary" any more than your credit and my credit is calculated. Fitch may downgrade U.S. credit rating

It's how we "borrow" money from banks and others. If we don't have a good credit rating, then our bonds don't sell. Bonds being how our debt is counted. We've already been downgraded once from Triple-A rating.

You are part of the problem and not the solution, if you believe that we must wait to cut our debt. Every "cut" the Democrats have made hasn't reduced the debt one iota. Because their "cuts" are never on the overall budget, but on the increases they want.

Yes, we have income, but so does the US Gov't. Unlike them, we would get arrested if we printed more money. Also, we have to live within our budget, and not raise our "debt ceiling" every time we want to.


Oh, and by the way, it's not the Republicans who are throwing the temper tantrum ... Reid: No negotiations with GOP on government funding, debt ceiling


Have I got a migraine!


Someone has to put WD's kids thru college, but why does it have to be me!
*This post is for purposes of enabling only, and does not constitute any promise of helping pay for said enabling. It does indicate willingness to assist in drinking said wine.

cmaldoon


quality posts: 62 Private Messages cmaldoon
MarkDaSpark wrote:Oh! Memes Galore!. I've got to reply to this idiocy.

#1 - The US Credit is not "imaginary and wholy arbitrary" any more than your credit and my credit is calculated.



Mark – please read again

I did not say that the US Credit was arbitrary. I said that the US credit limit was arbitrary.

It is absolutely idiocy to say that there is no US credit. Likewise it is idiocy to think that borrowing at our current rate will not hurt the US credit in the long run and really at this rate in the short to medium run.

I likewise think that it is idiocy to think that if we take our spending down to zero deficit levels instantly that it will not have a significant economic impact.

We need very significant reform and unfortunately both sides of the aisle are standing in the way of that.


2014 - 20 Btl. Fjellene (10 bot), Urraca Chard (10 bot)
Last purchase: 5/3/14

2013 - 75 btl. 2012 - 98 btl. 2011 - 112 btl. 2010 - 30 btl.
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cmaldoon


quality posts: 62 Private Messages cmaldoon

Mark –

I also think it is absolutely asinine that those who calculate budgetary cuts too so basing the cuts off of a perceived future plan. I feel that cut calculations should be based on what we spent last year. As in any cut is a real reduction over last years spending.

2014 - 20 Btl. Fjellene (10 bot), Urraca Chard (10 bot)
Last purchase: 5/3/14

2013 - 75 btl. 2012 - 98 btl. 2011 - 112 btl. 2010 - 30 btl.
My Cellar

cmaldoon


quality posts: 62 Private Messages cmaldoon
MarkDaSpark wrote:
Have I got a migraine!




I am not trying to give you a headache, I'm just trying to bring both sides toward the middle.

Plus, I think that what I actually typed would've giving you less of a migraine.

2014 - 20 Btl. Fjellene (10 bot), Urraca Chard (10 bot)
Last purchase: 5/3/14

2013 - 75 btl. 2012 - 98 btl. 2011 - 112 btl. 2010 - 30 btl.
My Cellar

chemvictim


quality posts: 3 Private Messages chemvictim
cmaldoon wrote:I am not trying to give you a headache, I'm just trying to bring both sides toward the middle.

Plus, I think that what I actually typed would've giving you less of a migraine.



Give it up, that's no fun for anyone. My side good, your side bad. No room for discussion, and no gray area.

I feel like I need to go to the DMV.

klezman


quality posts: 123 Private Messages klezman
MarkDaSpark wrote:One last time ... if you or I don't have money, we stop buying. If we don't have anything left on our credit limit, we stop using our credit cards.

We don't get to throw tantrums until our banks raise our credit limits or put more money in our bank accounts. We have to tighten our belts and suck it up.

It's time to suck it up.



I'm not disagreeing with you in principle, but my question is simple: why is it only *now* that it's time to suck it up? Why not in 2003 when Bush invaded Iraq? Why is it only now? A casual observer might conclude that it's simply because you don't like the guy in the White House, rather than it being something one must live with at all times. Obviously I didn't know you 10 years ago, so I'm not saying this is what you actually think.

Also, hasn't the European experience shown that "austerity" doesn't really lift an economy out of anything?

2014: 32 bottles. Last wine.woot: Scott Harvey Jana Cathedral 3 L
2013: 66 bottles, 2012: 91 bottles, 2011: 92 bottles, 2010: 74 bottles, 2009: 30 bottles, 2008: 3 bottles My CT

cmaldoon


quality posts: 62 Private Messages cmaldoon
klezman wrote:
Also, hasn't the European experience shown that "austerity" doesn't really lift an economy out of anything?



That's my main impetus to do this drawdown of spending thing with a careful touch. I think we need to reduce. We need to reduce starting soon. But we need to do it gradually and targetedly and for a long while.

2014 - 20 Btl. Fjellene (10 bot), Urraca Chard (10 bot)
Last purchase: 5/3/14

2013 - 75 btl. 2012 - 98 btl. 2011 - 112 btl. 2010 - 30 btl.
My Cellar

klezman


quality posts: 123 Private Messages klezman
cmaldoon wrote:Mark – please read again

I did not say that the US Credit was arbitrary. I said that the US credit limit was arbitrary.

It is absolutely idiocy to say that there is no US credit. Likewise it is idiocy to think that borrowing at our current rate will not hurt the US credit in the long run and really at this rate in the short to medium run.

I likewise think that it is idiocy to think that if we take our spending down to zero deficit levels instantly that it will not have a significant economic impact.

We need very significant reform and unfortunately both sides of the aisle are standing in the way of that.



This way my reading of your original post, fwiw. I also happen to agree with you.

It's also a very important thing to remember in these discussions that government spending is money in people's pockets that generate tax revenue and business income throughout the economy. It's not like it's money going into the abyss.

2014: 32 bottles. Last wine.woot: Scott Harvey Jana Cathedral 3 L
2013: 66 bottles, 2012: 91 bottles, 2011: 92 bottles, 2010: 74 bottles, 2009: 30 bottles, 2008: 3 bottles My CT

chemvictim


quality posts: 3 Private Messages chemvictim
klezman wrote:This way my reading of your original post, fwiw. I also happen to agree with you.

It's also a very important thing to remember in these discussions that government spending is money in people's pockets that generate tax revenue and business income throughout the economy. It's not like it's money going into the abyss.



That's really going to make Sparky's head explode.

As for the tantrums, yeah of course it's both sides. You can't have a budget fight without two sides. I think they need to suck it up and make this work somehow, and that shutting down the gov't is not productive. These jerks won't work with each other, and they have to.

As for Sparky's budget analogy, if I'm broke and up to my credit limits, I stop spending AND find a way to increase my income. I know you don't want that!

kylemittskus


quality posts: 231 Private Messages kylemittskus
MarkDaSpark wrote:The amazing thing is Kyle is against Obamacare (or so he says), but accepts it.



I really think it's stupid for us to argue about anything besides issues, but I have to address this one.

Your logic is: I don't want the gov't shut down in a completely futile attempt to overturn Obamacare (since that's not how laws are overturned). Ergo, I must be ok with it and I'm lying when I say I hate it. And my reason for lying would be what? Boost my street cred? Come on.

There are MANY flaws in the gov't. Obamacare is one of them. Another is these looming shut downs. And there's another one literally right around the corner.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

rjquillin


quality posts: 174 Private Messages rjquillin

The elected elite, why do I even bother to talk [s]with[/s] to you..?

CT

kylemittskus


quality posts: 231 Private Messages kylemittskus
rjquillin wrote:The elected elite, why do I even bother to talk [s]with[/s] to you..?



Well, sure. Our govt officials should certainly dictate what the political reporters asks. I think that was the exact purpose of both the press and the first amendment.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

klezman


quality posts: 123 Private Messages klezman
chemvictim wrote:That's really going to make Sparky's head explode.

As for the tantrums, yeah of course it's both sides. You can't have a budget fight without two sides. I think they need to suck it up and make this work somehow, and that shutting down the gov't is not productive. These jerks won't work with each other, and they have to.

As for Sparky's budget analogy, if I'm broke and up to my credit limits, I stop spending AND find a way to increase my income. I know you don't want that!



Head exploding not intended, but you have to assume that all money not being spent by the government that ends up in peoples' hands would suddenly get there by another means. Fewer dollars in the economy != growth.

Yes, they're all jerks and asshats. This particular time I put the blame squarely in the Tea Party overly attached girlfriends. (Not to say all Tea Party people are overly attached girlfriends, just the ones who are having a tantrum.)

Agreed on the budget analogy.

2014: 32 bottles. Last wine.woot: Scott Harvey Jana Cathedral 3 L
2013: 66 bottles, 2012: 91 bottles, 2011: 92 bottles, 2010: 74 bottles, 2009: 30 bottles, 2008: 3 bottles My CT

rjquillin


quality posts: 174 Private Messages rjquillin
klezman wrote:Head exploding not intended, but you have to assume that all money not being spent by the government that ends up in peoples' hands would suddenly get there by another means. Fewer dollars in the economy != growth.

Yes, they're all jerks and asshats. This particular time I put the blame squarely in the Tea Party overly attached girlfriends. (Not to say all Tea Party people are overly attached girlfriends, just the ones who are having a tantrum.)

Agreed on the budget analogy.

More $$ in my pocket = more $$ for me to decide how I want to spend = growth.

Yes, me me me. It's my money, I earned it, you/they didn't.

I'm soooo glad these topics were avoided in any conversations I was involved in yesterday.

CT

chemvictim


quality posts: 3 Private Messages chemvictim
rjquillin wrote:More $$ in my pocket = more $$ for me to decide how I want to spend = growth.

Yes, me me me. It's my money, I earned it, you/they didn't.

I'm soooo glad these topics were avoided in any conversations I was involved in yesterday.



I can appreciate that. If the government shuts down, will that put more $$ in my pocket?

klezman


quality posts: 123 Private Messages klezman
rjquillin wrote:More $$ in my pocket = more $$ for me to decide how I want to spend = growth.

Yes, me me me. It's my money, I earned it, you/they didn't.

I'm soooo glad these topics were avoided in any conversations I was involved in yesterday.



Yes, your growth absolutely, and I don't particularly want to give much of my hard earned $ to the government either. But serious question - in purely math terms, if tomorrow the government started putting 20% fewer dollars into the economy, and even assuming the unlikely outcome that we all paid 20% fewer tax dollars simultaneously, what would happen to the GDP? Grow? Shrink? Neutral?

2014: 32 bottles. Last wine.woot: Scott Harvey Jana Cathedral 3 L
2013: 66 bottles, 2012: 91 bottles, 2011: 92 bottles, 2010: 74 bottles, 2009: 30 bottles, 2008: 3 bottles My CT

klezman


quality posts: 123 Private Messages klezman
chemvictim wrote:I can appreciate that. If the government shuts down, will that put more $$ in my pocket?



Patent prosecution != essential service in terms of life/property, I take it?

2014: 32 bottles. Last wine.woot: Scott Harvey Jana Cathedral 3 L
2013: 66 bottles, 2012: 91 bottles, 2011: 92 bottles, 2010: 74 bottles, 2009: 30 bottles, 2008: 3 bottles My CT

chemvictim


quality posts: 3 Private Messages chemvictim
klezman wrote:Patent prosecution != essential service in terms of life/property, I take it?



We have reserve funds so I'll keep on working regardless. But gov't employees aside - if it shuts down, will that put $$ in any of our pockets?

Edit: I would love to have lower taxes, and no increases. LOVE it. I just don't believe it will happen. Do any of you think it will happen?

kylemittskus


quality posts: 231 Private Messages kylemittskus
chemvictim wrote:We have reserve funds so I'll keep on working regardless. But gov't employees aside - if it shuts down, will that put $$ in any of our pockets?



I think the idea is to prevent more money from coming out of your pockets. The govt shut down is a horrible idea and it is, IMO, a very poor way to try to stop Obamacare. And what the pubs are fighting for is to stop it for a year. And then what? Even more badger badger badgeric. But I think the pub's over-arching war-cry is to prevent an increase in taxes over the next 3-5 years, which I am personally 100% in favor of. Again, though, this is exactly the way not to do it and again, both sides are absolutely wrong.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

bhodilee


quality posts: 32 Private Messages bhodilee
chemvictim wrote:We have reserve funds so I'll keep on working regardless. But gov't employees aside - if it shuts down, will that put $$ in any of our pockets?



YES, BECAUSE IT MEANS THEY'LL GET RID OF OBAMACARE AND THAT WILL PUT CASH IN EVERYONE'S POCKET, MY SENATOR AND HOUSEPERSON (NOT THAT KIND, 13TH AMENDMENT SAW TO THAT) EACH SAID THEY'D GIVE ME A DOLLAR WHEN IT GOT REPEALED BY SHUTTING DOWN THE GOVERNMENT CAUSE IT WILL, AND IT WILL WORK, AND WORDS TO THAT AFFECT IN ALL CAPS BECAUSE I'M PASSIONATE ABOUT IT!

ALSO, IT'S A MUCH BETTER OPTION TO SHUT DOWN THE GOVERNMENT, CAVE,IN TWO WEEKS CAUSE OBAMACARE IS HAPPENING REGARDLESS AND THEN SAY, WE TRIED THEN LET THE STUPID THING GO FORWARD, FALL ON ITS FACE, PISS EVERYONE OFF, THEN SIT BACK AND SAY see, see I told you so, THEN WIN ALL THE HOUSE, THE SENATE AND THE PRESIDENCY AND REPEAL IT THEN WITH NO MUSS, NO FUSS, NO COCONUTS!

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."

– George Bernard Shaw, author (1856-1950)

chemvictim


quality posts: 3 Private Messages chemvictim
kylemittskus wrote:I think the idea is to prevent more money from coming out of your pockets. The govt shut down is a horrible idea and it is, IMO, a very poor way to try to stop Obamacare. And what the pubs are fighting for is to stop it for a year. And then what? Even more badger badger badgeric. But I think the pub's over-arching war-cry is to prevent an increase in taxes over the next 3-5 years, which I am personally 100% in favor of. Again, though, this is exactly the way not to do it and again, both sides are absolutely wrong.



I think they have given the dems some excellent compromise opportunities in the conscience clause om nom nom nom and the medical device tax. But the senate didn't even show up yesterday to work on it? O RLY?s.

chemvictim


quality posts: 3 Private Messages chemvictim

Incompetent fools.

cmaldoon


quality posts: 62 Private Messages cmaldoon
klezman wrote:Yes, your growth absolutely, and I don't particularly want to give much of my hard earned $ to the government either. But serious question - in purely math terms, if tomorrow the government started putting 20% fewer dollars into the economy, and even assuming the unlikely outcome that we all paid 20% fewer tax dollars simultaneously, what would happen to the GDP? Grow? Shrink? Neutral?



Certainly shrink in the short term. It may do well in the longer term but it would be a heavy drag until the extra consumer money got flowing. Something to be said about the government.... At least it knows how to spend money :-P

2014 - 20 Btl. Fjellene (10 bot), Urraca Chard (10 bot)
Last purchase: 5/3/14

2013 - 75 btl. 2012 - 98 btl. 2011 - 112 btl. 2010 - 30 btl.
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bhodilee


quality posts: 32 Private Messages bhodilee

So, today is the 123rd anniversary of Yosemite National Park. Is it wrong that I laughed?

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."

– George Bernard Shaw, author (1856-1950)

tytiger58


quality posts: 74 Private Messages tytiger58

If the government shut down would anyone notice?

Edit: If the state government's shut down could Woot start shipping wine again?

What contemptible scoundrel stole the cork from my lunch? ~ W. C. Fields

“Freedom is something that dies unless it's used” Hunter S Thompson




bhodilee


quality posts: 32 Private Messages bhodilee

Just in case you were wondering, all levels of government are led by badger badger badgers. I won't be going to work the rest of this week. Tools the boss I'm sick of the om nom nom nom and might come back Monday. I might just not go back

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."

– George Bernard Shaw, author (1856-1950)

klezman


quality posts: 123 Private Messages klezman
tytiger58 wrote:If the government shut down would anyone notice?

Edit: If the state governments shut down could Woot start shipping wine again?



To the first: yes. My immigration paperwork is now stalled indefinitely until the O RLY?s work it out. From my reading, this one is squarely on the pubbies.

To the second: I love that idea. I also fixed the apostrophe for you.

2014: 32 bottles. Last wine.woot: Scott Harvey Jana Cathedral 3 L
2013: 66 bottles, 2012: 91 bottles, 2011: 92 bottles, 2010: 74 bottles, 2009: 30 bottles, 2008: 3 bottles My CT

tytiger58


quality posts: 74 Private Messages tytiger58
klezman wrote:To the first: yes. My immigration paperwork is now stalled indefinitely until the O RLY?s work it out. From my reading, this one is squarely on the pubbies.

To the second: I love that idea. I also fixed the apostrophe for you.



So to the first question there is really no change for your problem no matter who you blame

What contemptible scoundrel stole the cork from my lunch? ~ W. C. Fields

“Freedom is something that dies unless it's used” Hunter S Thompson




North316


quality posts: 107 Private Messages North316

Just thought you people might find this funny, or completely disturbing:

Obamacare v. Affordable Care Act

My CT
"Trust your homies on the net", Clark Smith.
R.I.P. Inkycatz - Feb. 2013

chipgreen


quality posts: 189 Private Messages chipgreen
North316 wrote:Just thought you people might find this funny, or completely disturbing:

Obamacare v. Affordable Care Act


Reminds me of the people who kicked and screamed that Obama was a Socialist who was going to take their Medicare away from them.

rjquillin


quality posts: 174 Private Messages rjquillin
North316 wrote:Just thought you people might find this funny, or completely disturbing:

Obamacare v. Affordable Care Act

Here we have a couple of local radio jocks that do these Q&A's on the street, various locations, and ask questions generally relating to current events, social, environmental, governmental; you get the idea. Questions can be as (seemingly) simple as who the VP, SecState or House leaders are. Sometimes multiple choice, other times give me the name. Could be a difficult one as well, say, who is Angela Merkel? Social stuff would be characters in Survivor, or one of the singing or dancing talent shows.

Predictably the social questions score high, while the others fail miserably.

The Kimmel thing could be funny if it wasn't so disturbing. We are living in an age of the uninformed electorate.

CT

rjquillin


quality posts: 174 Private Messages rjquillin
chipgreen wrote:Reminds me of the people who kicked and screamed that Obama was a Socialist who was going to take their Medicare away from them.

Only the ~750B reductions. It's just a flesh wound!

CT

rjquillin


quality posts: 174 Private Messages rjquillin

M U S T * S T A Y * O U T * O F * P O L I T I C S

CT

chipgreen


quality posts: 189 Private Messages chipgreen
rjquillin wrote:Only the ~750B reductions. It's just a flesh wound!


I don't know the numbers (and wouldn't believe them if I saw them anyway) but yes, the reality of Medicare cuts in order to institute Obamacare is about as ironic as the people who were trying to protect their socialized medicine from the "socialist" President.

chemvictim


quality posts: 3 Private Messages chemvictim
rjquillin wrote:Only the ~750B reductions. It's just a flesh wound!



We used to get some comments around here about phasing the whole damn thing out. Of course, not for Obamacare, just in general.