kylemittskus


quality posts: 231 Private Messages kylemittskus
moondigger wrote:I'm making no such assumptions. I'm pointing at an example which appears to have been at least somewhat effective at preventing the kinds of massacres...

(BTW, Prohibition is not closely analogous, for various reasons.)



See my post above to BowTie. We were talking about 2 different but connected things.

I, however, think that Prohibition is a good and analogous example for how prohibition works wrt to gun control, the big issue. Not so much for the massacre crazy kid issue.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

moondigger


quality posts: 11 Private Messages moondigger
kylemittskus wrote:I, however, think that Prohibition is a good and analogous example for how prohibition works wrt to (A)gun control, the big issue. Not so much for the (B)massacre crazy kid issue.


I think we're mostly on the same page. I never said anything about your point A above; been talking about point B from the start.

In any case, here's why I think Prohibition is not really analogous:

1. Prohibition banned ALL alcohol. To make it analogous to gun control, it would have to be a ban on ALL guns, not just the so-called assault rifles. A sloppy analogy would be if Prohibition banned only distilled spirits over 120 proof, but left everything else legal.

2. Anybody can make alcohol in their own homes, using easily-obtained ingredients. My great grandfather made wine in his basement during Prohibition. The same cannot be said of a precisely-machined mechanical instrument like the rifles being discussed here.

Of course, with the continued development and improvement of 3D printing technology, point 2 will likely become moot.

bhodilee


quality posts: 32 Private Messages bhodilee
MarkDaSpark wrote:Edit: Found it!



just to be an argumentative prick, though I'm actually curious. How many bullets are held in the AR's Magazine as opposed to the .223 on the right? I'd imagine it's the kind where you feed a limited amount of bullets into the little shafty thingy therey. I know compute all about gun terminology. I can load one, I can shoot one, that's about as far as my knowledge goes. Kinda like how I can turn a key on a car and change oil, but I know compute all about cars.

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."

– George Bernard Shaw, author (1856-1950)

bhodilee


quality posts: 32 Private Messages bhodilee
kylemittskus wrote:Fair. I was speaking to gun control as a whole issue and not to the 6% of the whole issue. I do think that making X gun illegal will keep it out of the hands of the crazy kid whose dad is a underclocked and a) has the gun and b) leaves the safe unlocked if there even is a safe.



understood, but it seemed like you were alluding to the argument of "if you ban guns the only people that will have them are criminals" argument thrown out by EVERY pro-gun person in history since the invention of guns.

I think so much faster than I type that I frequently go back and read what I typed and I'm like, um waht

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."

– George Bernard Shaw, author (1856-1950)

mother


quality posts: 15 Private Messages mother



I like this one better. And if you want to be even more sure these people have no idea what matters, go look at this article.

moondigger


quality posts: 11 Private Messages moondigger

Welcome back to the discussion, Sparky.

MarkDaSpark wrote:I think the main problem is using "Massacre" and "Mass Shootings" interchangeably.


Okay, but to be clear, the definition they used for both pre- and post-gun control in Australia was the same. It's a misnomer, but they referred to it as "mass shooting." No need to respond to that, as I agree that the two words should not be used interchangeably.

The problem with using the "Australia banned guns, and there have been no massacres, so America should do the same", is that like all comparisons, there are many reasons factoring in, that also affect such items.


I'm not sure who you're quoting there, as I never said that. That sentiment is expressed in the video, but as I have pointed out from the start, I consider the video a starting point for discussion. I am not presenting it as a solution to anything.

Chicago, which seems to have banned most guns, is still one of the most deadliest cities in the world, whereas D.C., which loosened gun control is safer.


To be fair, there's a fairly big difference between a city (or cities) and an entire country. There are also quite obvious differences in the implementations of those bans in Chicago and Australia. Chicago says you can't have certain (most? all?) guns, and will charge you with a crime if you have one. Australia made the penalties quite severe for possession of certain kinds of weapons and implemented a very expensive buyback of ALL such weapons.

And, as Kyle pointed out earlier, it's much easier for Australia to keep guns outside their borders (which are surrounded by thousands of miles of ocean) than it would be to keep somebody from carrying guns into Chicago -- on foot, in a car trunk, etc.

Everyone seems to want to ignore the stats. Deaths by firearms are down, and have been going down for years. It's only in the "Gun Free Zones" where it's going up.


Uh, yeah... but areas are generally declared "gun free zones" because the threat of violence (due to socioeconomics and demographics) is higher there already. It's like declaring a crack house a "drug-free zone."

And to correct you, the AR-15 was NOT designed for that purpose. ANY semi-auto rifle can do the same.


I think my meaning was lost. I'm not saying the AR-15 was the most effective firearm made; I'm saying it (as a semi-automatic weapon) is a more effective tool in the hands of a deranged lunatic than (for example) a revolver. You would know better than I, but I was also under the impression that many semi-autos (if not the AR-15) were relatively easy to modify to make them fully automatic.

I appreciate the reasoned responses.

moondigger


quality posts: 11 Private Messages moondigger

Regarding the Chicago gun ban, it's worth considering the reasons for it vs. the Australian ban.

They didn't really ban guns in Chicago in the hopes that the ban would actually keep guns out of the city. Even the politicians have enough brain cells to know that a criminal is not going to check his gun at the city limits.

The ban is in place so that prosecutors can slap more and heftier charges on criminals. It's a tool for punishment, not prevention.

The ban in Australia was implemented as a direct result of the Port Arthur massacre. They were trying to prevent similar future massacres, and did what they could to use the new law as a preventative measure.

It did not prevent all gun violence.

But it does appear to have at least significantly reduced the incidence of Port Arthur-style massacres.

Disclaimers:
Yes, that's in Australia. Australia is not the United States. It did nothing to curb the much-more-common gun violence committed with handguns. Past performance is not a guarantee of future results. Call your doctor if effects last longer than 4 hours.

kylemittskus


quality posts: 231 Private Messages kylemittskus

What exactly are we arguing about?

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

bhodilee


quality posts: 32 Private Messages bhodilee
kylemittskus wrote:What exactly are we arguing about?



Some variation of size matters

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."

– George Bernard Shaw, author (1856-1950)

moondigger


quality posts: 11 Private Messages moondigger
kylemittskus wrote:What exactly are we arguing about?


I don't know. But I think I might try the Iron Horse UnOaked Chard tonight.

kylemittskus


quality posts: 231 Private Messages kylemittskus
bhodilee wrote:Some variation of size matters



HAHAHA!

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

kylemittskus


quality posts: 231 Private Messages kylemittskus

Even though this likely shouldn't be political, at least not entirely, what does everyone think about the Treyvon Martin shooting?

I can't see the prosecution winning. And when Zimmerman is found not guilty, racism will be shouted from the rooftops.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

bhodilee


quality posts: 32 Private Messages bhodilee
kylemittskus wrote:Even though this likely shouldn't be political, at least not entirely, what does everyone think about the Treyvon Martin shooting?

I can't see the prosecution winning. And when Zimmerman is found not guilty, racism will be shouted from the rooftops.



I think the kid is dead and that's about the most we'll ever know.

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."

– George Bernard Shaw, author (1856-1950)

mother


quality posts: 15 Private Messages mother
kylemittskus wrote:Even though this likely shouldn't be political, at least not entirely, what does everyone think about the Treyvon Martin shooting?

I can't see the prosecution winning. And when Zimmerman is found not guilty, racism will be shouted from the rooftops.



I think so far it's demonstrated how horribly racist segments of black america are far more than anything else. It's a huge setback for race relations no matter the outcome.

Oh yeah, and a kid is dead for no good reason either way.

moondigger


quality posts: 11 Private Messages moondigger
bhodilee wrote:I think the kid is dead and that's about the most we'll ever know.


+1

bhodilee


quality posts: 32 Private Messages bhodilee
mother wrote:I think so far it's demonstrated how horribly racist segments of black america are far more than anything else. It's a huge setback for race relations no matter the outcome.

Oh yeah, and a kid is dead for no good reason either way.



How long until some 386 says something like, that's just payback for OJ and gets shunned off the net?

By the way, I'm not saying it, just saying that someone is gonna say it, someone who says things that matter, not the known 386 on a random wine board.

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."

– George Bernard Shaw, author (1856-1950)

chemvictim


quality posts: 3 Private Messages chemvictim
kylemittskus wrote:Even though this likely shouldn't be political, at least not entirely, what does everyone think about the Treyvon Martin shooting?

I can't see the prosecution winning. And when Zimmerman is found not guilty, racism will be shouted from the rooftops.



http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/12/us/zimmerman-faces-second-degree-murder-charge-in-florida.html?_r=0

"Under second-degree murder, the jury must find that a death was caused by a criminal act “demonstrating a depraved mind without regard for human life,” said Eric Abrahamsen, a criminal defense lawyer in Tallahassee, reading from the state’s standard jury instructions."

How is the prosecution going to meet this standard? All I see so far is that Zimmerman used very poor judgement. There doesn't seem to be much question that the two fought. As for the racism angle, even white hispanics (or whatever you want to call Zimmerman) are entitled to the presumption of innocence, reasonable doubt standard, and all that crap.

mother


quality posts: 15 Private Messages mother
chemvictim wrote:
How is the prosecution going to meet this standard? All I see so far is that Zimmerman used very poor judgement. There doesn't seem to be much question that the two fought. As for the racism angle, even white hispanics (or whatever you want to call Zimmerman) are entitled to the presumption of innocence, reasonable doubt standard, and all that crap.



Has anyone come across a single individual who informed w/r/t criminal law felt there was any real case here?

mother


quality posts: 15 Private Messages mother
bhodilee wrote:How long until some 386 says something like, that's just payback for OJ and gets shunned off the net?

By the way, I'm not saying it, just saying that someone is gonna say it, someone who says things that matter, not the known 386 on a random wine board.



I dunno, get a cooking show where they use assloads of butter and fry everything?

kylemittskus


quality posts: 231 Private Messages kylemittskus
mother wrote:Has anyone come across a single individual who informed w/r/t criminal law felt there was any real case here?



Juries are capricious. From my perspective, a perspective that I feel is reasonable and logical without emotion or bias due to race or otherwise, there is inherent reasonable doubt before a single word is said in court. That should be not guilty, cut and dry.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

chemvictim


quality posts: 3 Private Messages chemvictim
mother wrote:I dunno, get a cooking show where they use assloads of butter and fry everything?



Wrong order of events.

mother


quality posts: 15 Private Messages mother
chemvictim wrote:Wrong order of events.



D'oh y'all.

moondigger


quality posts: 11 Private Messages moondigger
mother wrote:Has anyone come across a single individual who informed w/r/t criminal law felt there was any real case here?


The case is circumstantial, as there were no eyewitnesses. Meeting the burden of proof depends entirely on how clear a picture the prosecution can paint, and whether the jury believes it.

There has been quite a bit of discussion about the demographic make up of the jury. IIRC, it's five white women and one Latino woman, most of them mothers. The speculation is: will they be more sympathetic to Martin, because they are moms, or more sympathetic to Zimmerman, as he is not black?

I don't know the answer. I only know that this stuff is being discussed seriously on news and opinion shows.

ERMD


quality posts: 1 Private Messages ERMD

I live 1 county over and personally ,I'm damn tired of it

bhodilee


quality posts: 32 Private Messages bhodilee
ERMD wrote:I live 1 county over and personally ,I'm damn tired of it



I can only imagine

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."

– George Bernard Shaw, author (1856-1950)

chemvictim


quality posts: 3 Private Messages chemvictim
ERMD wrote:I live 1 county over and personally ,I'm damn tired of it



I'll bet. Personally, I find it interesting but there is so much BS surrounding it.

ERMD


quality posts: 1 Private Messages ERMD
chemvictim wrote:I'll bet. Personally, I find it interesting but there is so much BS surrounding it.


It's on All of the channels ,ABC, NBC, CBS,FOX CNN MSNBC,FOX NEWS Channel 13(our 24 hour local news.)
They have dissected this almost to every breath that was taken.

kylemittskus


quality posts: 231 Private Messages kylemittskus
ERMD wrote:It's on All of the channels ,ABC, NBC, CBS,FOX CNN MSNBC,FOX NEWS Channel 13(our 24 hour local news.)
They have dissected this almost to every breath that was taken.



It's a lot like the OJ trial was. I think that there's a lot more riding on this trial than there should be and that's unfortunate, especially for the US moving into a post-racist society.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

coynedj


quality posts: 7 Private Messages coynedj
ERMD wrote:It's on All of the channels ,ABC, NBC, CBS,FOX CNN MSNBC,FOX NEWS Channel 13(our 24 hour local news.)
They have dissected this almost to every breath that was taken.



I knew there was a reason I don't bother with TV news any more. I take great pleasure in ignoring such spectacles. I get most of my news on the internet these days, and I try to enforce the 1-month rule as to what I read - if the topic is something I won't care about in another month, then I don't waste my time reading it.

I started out on Burgundy but soon hit the harder stuff. Bob Dylan, Just Like Tom Thumb's Blues

How on earth did I get 7 QPs?

MarkDaSpark


quality posts: 185 Private Messages MarkDaSpark

Brief pop-in:

California is about to pass a law requiring bathroom, locker room access regardless of gender

This is what happens with a Super Majority of 386s in both houses.


Someone has to put WD's kids thru college, but why does it have to be me!
*This post is for purposes of enabling only, and does not constitute any promise of helping pay for said enabling. It does indicate willingness to assist in drinking said wine.

chemvictim


quality posts: 3 Private Messages chemvictim
MarkDaSpark wrote:Brief pop-in:

California is about to pass a law requiring bathroom, locker room access regardless of gender

This is what happens with a Super Majority of 386s in both houses.



Oh, mercy.

"I just want to be treated the same as all the other boys, but my school forces me to take P.E. in a class of all girls and live as someone I'm not," Lee said in a statement. "I can't learn and succeed when every day in that class leaves me feeling isolated and alone."

I think that about says it all. Teenage drama.

kylemittskus


quality posts: 231 Private Messages kylemittskus
chemvictim wrote:Oh, mercy.

"I just want to be treated the same as all the other boys, but my school forces me to take P.E. in a class of all girls and live as someone I'm not," Lee said in a statement. "I can't learn and succeed when every day in that class leaves me feeling isolated and alone."

I think that about says it all. Teenage drama.



I'm quite ambivalent about this one, actually. And I think the reason is the sweeping nature.

I'm not sure I see an issue with a child/teen who identifies as a girl to be able to participate on the girls' team. However, I think there is a lot of problems with a child/teen who identifies as a girl but is still biologically a boy being allowed to change in a girls' locker room. "If all I had to do to see naked girls..." and such. I do not think we should stomp on one group's rights (non-transgender girls and boys) for the sake of another group (transgender boys and girls). I think this story shows that contrary to what a lot of the liberal voice yell, that blade absolutely cuts both ways.

Sparky, I do agree that this seems to be an overarching policy and agree that its success is due to the "socially liberal" side of the coin having control. However, I'm not sure which is the greater of the two evils. The aforementioned or the steam-rolling that would happen if the other side held the same control. Indeed, there may not be a "greater than" and that's really unfortunate for everyone, IMO.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

mother


quality posts: 15 Private Messages mother
kylemittskus wrote:I think there is a lot of problems with a child/teen who identifies as a girl but is still biologically a boy being allowed to change in a girls' locker room. "If all I had to do to see naked girls..." and such.



Get over yourself! j/k
Do you really think getting an erection in the HS locker room EVERY CLASS is a good move?

But seriously, the day that a straight teenage boy would in a million years pretend to be trans-gendered to get to see some ta-tas is one that I welcome.

bhodilee


quality posts: 32 Private Messages bhodilee
mother wrote:Get over yourself! j/k
Do you really think getting an erection in the HS locker room EVERY CLASS is a good move?

But seriously, the day that a straight teenage boy would in a million years pretend to be trans-gendered to get to see some ta-tas is one that I welcome.



I'm actually unsure why they think it's okay to subject all the girls to this kids wang? I'm sure that's not something they want to see. If he's not comfortable changing in the boy's locker room or whatever, change in a stall. Regardless of how he thinks he should have been born, he was born with a dink and until such time as he can get it changed, he'll just have to live with it. Unless the girl's locker room isn't an open area like the boy's. Then who cares.

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."

– George Bernard Shaw, author (1856-1950)

bhodilee


quality posts: 32 Private Messages bhodilee
MarkDaSpark wrote:Brief pop-in:

California is about to pass a law requiring bathroom, locker room access regardless of gender

This is what happens with a Super Majority of 386s in both houses.



But can they be reporters for the school newspaper?

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."

– George Bernard Shaw, author (1856-1950)

chemvictim


quality posts: 3 Private Messages chemvictim
bhodilee wrote:I'm actually unsure why they think it's okay to subject all the girls to this kids wang? I'm sure that's not something they want to see. If he's not comfortable changing in the boy's locker room or whatever, change in a stall. Regardless of how he thinks he should have been born, he was born with a dink and until such time as he can get it changed, he'll just have to live with it. Unless the girl's locker room isn't an open area like the boy's. Then who cares.



What's so wrong with just having a private place to change? A stall, something. Why must it all be open? Let's shower together, it builds character?

joelsisk


quality posts: 10 Private Messages joelsisk
chemvictim wrote:Oh, mercy.

"I just want to be treated the same as all the other boys, but my school forces me to take P.E. in a class of all girls and live as someone I'm not," Lee said in a statement. "I can't learn and succeed when every day in that class leaves me feeling isolated and alone."

I think that about says it all. Teenage drama.



Um, aren't single-sex sports split due to physical differences? Isn't that the point (supposedly) safety? I mean, if it was a coed sport, there would be no problem. Obviously, this is in regards to the bold below:

The proposed law would require that a pupil "be permitted to participate in sex-segregated school programs and activities, including athletic teams and competitions, and use facilities consistent with his or her gender identity, irrespective of the gender listed on the pupil's records," the legislation says.

chemvictim


quality posts: 3 Private Messages chemvictim
joelsisk wrote:Um, aren't single-sex sports split due to physical differences? Isn't that the point (supposedly) safety? I mean, if it was a coed sport, there would be no problem.



I thought so. I don't know. There was this recent kerfluffle about a girl who wanted to play football and wasn't allowed to, but it was because the principle had some gross idea that he'd prayed about it and he thought the boys would be lustful. Or something.

kylemittskus


quality posts: 231 Private Messages kylemittskus
chemvictim wrote:I thought so. I don't know. There was this recent kerfluffle about a girl who wanted to play football and wasn't allowed to, but it was because the principle had some gross idea that he'd prayed about it and he thought the boys would be lustful. Or something.



Freshman year of HS, I went to an all boys catholic school (I know!) and we had a girl on our hockey team (from the sister school). She changed with us and everything.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

mother


quality posts: 15 Private Messages mother
kylemittskus wrote:Freshman year of HS, I went to an all boys catholic school (I know!) and we had a girl on our hockey team (from the sister school). She changed with us and everything.



But did her hockey bag smell bad enough to respect her?