mother


quality posts: 14 Private Messages mother
jawlz wrote:At least as far as DUIs go, there's a combination of blame that goes around and hits on both the driver AND the alcohol (I have no doubt that MADD, for instance, would openly advocate prohibition if they didn't already know it was a losing argument).


Let's leave teetotalers out of it and focus on the media. The media doesn't blame the alcohol, do they?

kylemittskus


quality posts: 224 Private Messages kylemittskus

Speaking of MADD and overzealous DAs, did you guys hear about the two teenagers being charged after a teenage girl drove drunk, crashed, and died? I'm not sure why they're responsible for her poor, and ultimately tragic, decision.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

chemvictim


quality posts: 3 Private Messages chemvictim
MarkDaSpark wrote:
I had to look up MOT a while back, when PS used it one time.



I had to google it too! lol

kylemittskus


quality posts: 224 Private Messages kylemittskus
MarkDaSpark wrote:Hmm, Gun deaths down each year since 1993. Gun sales up each year.

. . .

When there's a bombing, we blame the Bomber; when there's a Drunk Driving accident, we blame the Driver; Why, when there's a shooting do we blame the Gun?



Post hoc ergo propter hoc. Maybe.

And that's a legitimate question that I think hits the crux of the anti-gun debate.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

mother


quality posts: 14 Private Messages mother
kylemittskus wrote:Post hoc ergo propter hoc. Maybe.

And that's a legitimate question that I think hits the crux of the anti-gun debate.



Pretty sure that's not the issue here. Both sides engage in 'post hoc when they disregard all other factors and just point to some figure that says 'see guns kill' or 'see guns reduce violence'.

The issue here is that there is a distinct and concerted effort (one that Progressive politicians won't deny) to cast the firearm itself as being inherently evil.

Then anyone who wants one is automatically a suspect person...

An example of this is the invention/reinforcement of the term "assault weapon." It is pure play marketing ploy...

chemvictim


quality posts: 3 Private Messages chemvictim
MarkDaSpark wrote:When there's a bombing, we blame the Bomber; when there's a Drunk Driving accident, we blame the Driver; Why, when there's a shooting do we blame the Gun?



I think maybe it's because people are afraid, and we don't know how to handle the deranged shooters.

My humble opinion is that all the anti-gun stuff is making things worse. We're all terrified of each other, and scared people aren't reasonable people.

MarkDaSpark


quality posts: 168 Private Messages MarkDaSpark
bhodilee wrote:On the eggnog carton



Looks more like a Rabbi with a red yarmulke to me.


Someone has to put WD's kids thru college, but why does it have to be me!
*This post is for purposes of enabling only, and does not constitute any promise of helping pay for said enabling. It does indicate willingness to assist in drinking said wine.

MarkDaSpark


quality posts: 168 Private Messages MarkDaSpark
kylemittskus wrote:Speaking of MADD and overzealous DAs, did you guys hear about the two teenagers being charged after a teenage girl drove drunk, crashed, and died? I'm not sure why they're responsible for her poor, and ultimately tragic, decision.



Evidently, one of them was driving before, and let her drive from his house. Sounds like the authorities feel they should have known she wasn't able to drive, based on her BAC.


Someone has to put WD's kids thru college, but why does it have to be me!
*This post is for purposes of enabling only, and does not constitute any promise of helping pay for said enabling. It does indicate willingness to assist in drinking said wine.

mother


quality posts: 14 Private Messages mother
MarkDaSpark wrote:Looks more like a Rabbi with a red yarmulke to me.



Cow with a santa hat...

kylemittskus


quality posts: 224 Private Messages kylemittskus
MarkDaSpark wrote:Evidently, one of them was driving before, and let her drive from his house. Sounds like the authorities feel they should have known she wasn't able to drive, based on her BAC.



What I don't know is whether the other teens were intoxicated or not. I'm still not sure how I feel about it. I'm not sure I like the precedent of having some teens be responsible for other teens' actions.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

chipgreen


quality posts: 152 Private Messages chipgreen
kylemittskus wrote:What I don't know is whether the other teens were intoxicated or not. I'm still not sure how I feel about it. I'm not sure I like the precedent of having some teens be responsible for other teens' actions.


Maybe if one of them owned the car, then I could see some culpability for allowing her to drive away in it but that's not the case.

chemvictim


quality posts: 3 Private Messages chemvictim

I can't stop reading internet comments about Phil Robertson and A&E. It's so unhealthy. I need an intervention.

kylemittskus


quality posts: 224 Private Messages kylemittskus
chemvictim wrote:I can't stop reading internet comments about Phil Robertson and A&E. It's so unhealthy. I need an intervention.



I would rather poke my eyes out than read comments on news stories.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

jawlz


quality posts: 12 Private Messages jawlz
chemvictim wrote:I can't stop reading internet comments about Phil Robertson and A&E. It's so unhealthy. I need an intervention.



I don't know why so many people are shocked (well... acting shocked; I suppose it is likely that many of those who are acting shocked aren't in actuality shocked) that a guy who is well known to be a bible-thumping hick holds views that are commonly associated with bible-thumping hicks.

(side note - I'm not really comfortable using the term 'hick' to be honest - does anyone have a good and potentially less pejorative term here?)

joelsisk


quality posts: 5 Private Messages joelsisk
jawlz wrote:
(side note - I'm not really comfortable using the term 'hick' to be honest - does anyone have a good and potentially less pejorative term here?)



white trash?

ETA:

urban dictionary wrote:hick
A derogatory slang term for lower class whites raised in rural areas, usually within trailer parks or hog farms. Generally used more for Midwesterners than Southerners (see: redneck)
General defining characteristics of a hick: Protestant upbringing, usually Baptist; racist and sexist opinions; does not attend collage ; dumber than a post.

kylemittskus


quality posts: 224 Private Messages kylemittskus

I agree with jawlz. He also, apparently, made racist remarks.

And we know what you mean by "hick." No offense here. BowTie, though . . .

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

klezman


quality posts: 113 Private Messages klezman
MarkDaSpark wrote:When there's a bombing, we blame the Bomber; when there's a Drunk Driving accident, we blame the Driver; Why, when there's a shooting do we blame the Gun?



Nope, blame them all! And it's not blaming the gun per se, it's the ease of access. You seem to think I'm somehow just categorically anti-gun. I'm not. Not even close. I just don't see the benefits. And claiming that more guns -> less gun violence by the stat you mentioned is obviously a correlation without any ability to tease out causation.

2014: 17 bottles. Last wine.woot: Wellington Vitory x3 & Fjellene Walla Walla Reds
2013: 66 bottles, 2012: 91 bottles, 2011: 92 bottles, 2010: 74 bottles, 2009: 30 bottles, 2008: 3 bottles My CT

kylemittskus


quality posts: 224 Private Messages kylemittskus
klezman wrote:Nope, blame them all! And it's not blaming the gun per se, it's the ease of access. You seem to think I'm somehow just categorically anti-gun. I'm not. Not even close. I just don't see the benefits. And claiming that more guns -> less gun violence by the stat you mentioned is obviously a correlation without any ability to tease out causation.



You don't see the benefits of what? Owning a gun? Owning multiple guns? Guns in general?

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

chemvictim


quality posts: 3 Private Messages chemvictim

Hick can be mildly offensive; white trash extremely so. I enjoyed the definition of hick as someone who did not go to collage.

I don't see the Robertsons as white trash regardless, I don't think they fit the stereotype. I must admit I was a leeetle surprised. I grew up in the rural south, surrounded by bible thumpers (although I'm not into that myself), and I still hang on to hope that "hick" bible thumpers can be kind and that Christianity can be about more than sexual morality. My hope has dwindled somewhat after seeing how my friends and family reacted to this.

I haven't seen many comments about the racism. I guess nobody cares when there's gay stuff to harp on.


jawlz


quality posts: 12 Private Messages jawlz
klezman wrote:Nope, blame them all! And it's not blaming the gun per se, it's the ease of access. You seem to think I'm somehow just categorically anti-gun. I'm not. Not even close. I just don't see the benefits. And claiming that more guns -> less gun violence by the stat you mentioned is obviously a correlation without any ability to tease out causation.



Quite so, although I *do* think it is enough to say that any link between more guns and *more* gun violence is - at the very best - an extraordinarily tenuous one (and in fact likely nonexistent).

rjquillin


quality posts: 153 Private Messages rjquillin
klezman wrote:And claiming that more guns -> less gun violence by the stat you mentioned is obviously a correlation without any ability to tease out causation.

No time now to dig out links, but I've seen more than a few studies where crime, gun violence/deaths have increased as more restrictive laws are enacted. Chicago and DC come to mind as prime examples, and, iirc, are skewed towards occurring in "gun-free" zones.

CT

MarkDaSpark


quality posts: 168 Private Messages MarkDaSpark
klezman wrote:Nope, blame them all! And it's not blaming the gun per se, it's the ease of access. You seem to think I'm somehow just categorically anti-gun. I'm not. Not even close. I just don't see the benefits. And claiming that more guns -> less gun violence by the stat you mentioned is obviously a correlation without any ability to tease out causation.



Less than those claiming more guns = more deaths. And all you have to do is look at the FBI statistics. There's been less gun violence each and every year, while gun sales have gone up (actual stats, especially since 2008).

I think FactChecker (which I question sometimes due to some obvious questionable "checks") has a graphic on it. Most arrows are indeed down on gun violence, while some went up (Suicide). However, many in the mental health community disagree with limiting guns would lower the suicide rates.


And as RJ noted, it's been shown that cities that hamper the 2nd Amendment do indeed have higher gun violence/deaths than other cities that don't.


Someone has to put WD's kids thru college, but why does it have to be me!
*This post is for purposes of enabling only, and does not constitute any promise of helping pay for said enabling. It does indicate willingness to assist in drinking said wine.

chemvictim


quality posts: 3 Private Messages chemvictim
MarkDaSpark wrote:Less than those claiming more guns = more deaths. And all you have to do is look at the FBI statistics. There's been less gun violence each and every year, while gun sales have gone up (actual stats, especially since 2008).

I think FactChecker (which I question sometimes due to some obvious questionable "checks") has a graphic on it. Most arrows are indeed down on gun violence, while some went up (Suicide). However, many in the mental health community disagree with limiting guns would lower the suicide rates.


And as RJ noted, it's been shown that cities that hamper the 2nd Amendment do indeed have higher gun violence/deaths than other cities that don't.



I really don't mind if people commit suicide. That's their business.

Is it possible that some cities are just super crappy?

rjquillin


quality posts: 153 Private Messages rjquillin
chemvictim wrote:I really don't mind if people commit suicide. That's their business.

Is it possible that some cities are just super crappy?

If it were just those using guns to commit crime that got killed, I don't think it would bother me all that much; any?

CT

bhodilee


quality posts: 32 Private Messages bhodilee
kylemittskus wrote:I agree with jawlz. He also, apparently, made racist remarks.

And we know what you mean by "hick." No offense here. BowTie, though . . .



HEY I'm straight Iowa hillbilly! No hick in me

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."

– George Bernard Shaw, author (1856-1950)

kylemittskus


quality posts: 224 Private Messages kylemittskus
jawlz wrote:Quite so, although I *do* think it is enough to say that any link between more guns and *more* gun violence is - at the very best - an extraordinarily tenuous one (and in fact likely nonexistent).



Understanding that they're both almost post hoc, making them almost invalid, I think that this one is less likely to be even partially true.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

chemvictim


quality posts: 3 Private Messages chemvictim
cheron98 wrote:Except for the ACLU whose annual traditions include teaming up with anyone to fight to get all public displays of Christmas removed from everywhere but never seeking to remove other holiday decor.

I'm surprised they haven't gone after the Rockefeller tree yet.

Others need to be as cognizant and tolerant of the Christian holiday as they keep screaming at us to be of theirs.



I was able to find some stories about the ACLU suing to remove religious displays from schools, including displays other then just Christian, but I was not able to find any evidence that they are trying to get all Christmas displays removed from everywhere.

They are certainly failing in my town. We have a town Christmas tree, and we had a Christmas parade. I know at least a Florida public building has a nativity scene, alongside their tacky Festivus pole. There is a White House Christmas tree. And so on.

I'm curious about what you'd like to see "others" do or say to demonstrate their cognizance and tolerance of Christmas. What do individuals need to do?

bhodilee


quality posts: 32 Private Messages bhodilee
chemvictim wrote:I was able to find some stories about the ACLU suing to remove religious displays from schools, including displays other then just Christian, but I was not able to find any evidence that they are trying to get all Christmas displays removed from everywhere.

They are certainly failing in my town. We have a town Christmas tree, and we had a Christmas parade. I know at least a Florida public building has a nativity scene, alongside their tacky Festivus pole. There is a White House Christmas tree. And so on.

I'm curious about what you'd like to see "others" do or say to demonstrate their cognizance and tolerance of Christmas. What do individuals need to do?



My town has a full on Nativity in front of town hall. Works for me.

Edit:to clarify, they should not have it, but its small town Nebraska. Not worth the fight for something I don't care enough about.

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."

– George Bernard Shaw, author (1856-1950)

cheron98


quality posts: 123 Private Messages cheron98
chemvictim wrote:I'm curious about what you'd like to see "others" do or say to demonstrate their cognizance and tolerance of Christmas. What do individuals need to do?



Not tell us it's not OK to say Merry Christmas. Not send kids to detention for saying Christmas or talking about their faith. I personally don't mind saying/hearing Happy Holidays anymore, but no one should be afraid to say Merry Christmas (or Happy Hanukkah or Happy Kwanzaa or whatever others there are that i'm sure I'm forgetting). No one should be made to feel small because of their faith.

I saw HitAnyKey42 on wine.woot! and clicked "I want one!"

kylemittskus


quality posts: 224 Private Messages kylemittskus
cheron98 wrote:Not tell us it's not OK to say Merry Christmas. Not send kids to detention for saying Christmas or talking about their faith. I personally don't mind saying/hearing Happy Holidays anymore, but no one should be afraid to say Merry Christmas (or Happy Hanukkah or Happy Kwanzaa or whatever others there are that i'm sure I'm forgetting). No one should be made to feel small because of their faith.



Where is this happening outside of govt agencies, like the school itself, celebrating the a religious holiday?

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

chemvictim


quality posts: 3 Private Messages chemvictim
cheron98 wrote:Not tell us it's not OK to say Merry Christmas. Not send kids to detention for saying Christmas or talking about their faith. I personally don't mind saying/hearing Happy Holidays anymore, but no one should be afraid to say Merry Christmas (or Happy Hanukkah or Happy Kwanzaa or whatever others there are that i'm sure I'm forgetting). No one should be made to feel small because of their faith.



I think you should say Merry Christmas all you want! I can sympathize with retailers wanting their employees to use "happy holidays" because they want to sell their crap to everybody, they want to use a catch-all term to snag all the holidays. I don't see it as trying to exclude or squash Christmas, but to bring in the other holidays as well. That's just me.

Did you used to mind hearing Happy Holidays? I've met a few people who did. I can't agree that saying Happy Holidays is a weapon in the war on Christmas (you didn't say it was, others have).

About sending a child to detention...I guess it would depend on what he was saying about his faith. If he's explaining to the other children how sinful they are and how they're going to burn in hell, that might be his faith but it's disruptive and mean. I think there has to be a balance, you know? I've only heard about this in the context of homosexuality, unfortunately. I can't support letting a kid abuse another kid just because it's his faith.

chemvictim


quality posts: 3 Private Messages chemvictim
kylemittskus wrote:Where is this happening outside of govt agencies, like the school itself, celebrating the a religious holiday?



I have asked family members this same question. Who are these grumpy elfs who aren't letting you say Merry Christmas? I'm getting the impression from my family members, that it's more about other people not saying "Merry Christmas," which makes them feel that their faith is not properly recognized or appreciated. I'm not sure what we can do about that.

klezman


quality posts: 113 Private Messages klezman
kylemittskus wrote:You don't see the benefits of what? Owning a gun? Owning multiple guns? Guns in general?



Benefit of me owning a gun is near zero. Having a populace that is generally armed but not highly trained I see as not beneficial either. Of course I'm talking about "guns for personal protection"...different discussion wrt hunting.

jawlz wrote:Quite so, although I *do* think it is enough to say that any link between more guns and *more* gun violence is - at the very best - an extraordinarily tenuous one (and in fact likely nonexistent).



Yup. That argument cuts both ways for sure. Correlation vs causation is extremely difficult to figure out in the real world.

And Ron, same correlation problems there.

2014: 17 bottles. Last wine.woot: Wellington Vitory x3 & Fjellene Walla Walla Reds
2013: 66 bottles, 2012: 91 bottles, 2011: 92 bottles, 2010: 74 bottles, 2009: 30 bottles, 2008: 3 bottles My CT

klezman


quality posts: 113 Private Messages klezman
MarkDaSpark wrote:Less than those claiming more guns = more deaths. And all you have to do is look at the FBI statistics. There's been less gun violence each and every year, while gun sales have gone up (actual stats, especially since 2008).



Extremely broad statistic, although interesting, doesn't say anything about the causes or reasons. I don't think the likelihood of violence goes up because somebody who owns 2 guns buys 3 more. Then there's the definition of "gun violence" which can include anywhere from "a shot b" to "gang violence" to "c pulled a gun on d". I'm not saying those stats are wrong, just that without digging far deeper than I care to do, I can't draw any conclusion from them.

2014: 17 bottles. Last wine.woot: Wellington Vitory x3 & Fjellene Walla Walla Reds
2013: 66 bottles, 2012: 91 bottles, 2011: 92 bottles, 2010: 74 bottles, 2009: 30 bottles, 2008: 3 bottles My CT

rjquillin


quality posts: 153 Private Messages rjquillin
klezman wrote:And Ron, same correlation problems there.

True, with the way administrations manipulate numbers now, good, accurate, reliable data is difficult to verify.

Wonder which has less, that $4.98 bottle, or government statistics?

CT

klezman


quality posts: 113 Private Messages klezman
cheron98 wrote:Not tell us it's not OK to say Merry Christmas. Not send kids to detention for saying Christmas or talking about their faith. I personally don't mind saying/hearing Happy Holidays anymore, but no one should be afraid to say Merry Christmas (or Happy Hanukkah or Happy Kwanzaa or whatever others there are that i'm sure I'm forgetting). No one should be made to feel small because of their faith.



I'm on the other side of this, in a manner of speaking. I wish people would just say Merry Christmas instead of "Happy Holidays". As if there's another holiday this time of year? Just screams to me of PC BS, and that's never good. If somebody is wishing me well, even if it's wrt a holiday I don't celebrate, then that's how I will take it. And I will thank them and wish them the same. Like a normal person.

2014: 17 bottles. Last wine.woot: Wellington Vitory x3 & Fjellene Walla Walla Reds
2013: 66 bottles, 2012: 91 bottles, 2011: 92 bottles, 2010: 74 bottles, 2009: 30 bottles, 2008: 3 bottles My CT

klezman


quality posts: 113 Private Messages klezman
rjquillin wrote:True, with the way administrations manipulate numbers now, good accurate, reliable data is difficult to verify.

Wonder which has less manipulation, that $4.98 bottle, or government statistics?



Manipulation? Government statistics, easily. But if you're really talking about biased reporting instead then probably the most accurate answer is "anybody who's ever reported a statistic ever".

2014: 17 bottles. Last wine.woot: Wellington Vitory x3 & Fjellene Walla Walla Reds
2013: 66 bottles, 2012: 91 bottles, 2011: 92 bottles, 2010: 74 bottles, 2009: 30 bottles, 2008: 3 bottles My CT

mother


quality posts: 14 Private Messages mother
klezman wrote:I'm on the other side of this, in a manner of speaking. I wish people would just say Merry Christmas instead of "Happy Holidays". As if there's another holiday this time of year? Just screams to me of PC BS, and that's never good. If somebody is wishing me well, even if it's wrt a holiday I don't celebrate, then that's how I will take it. And I will thank them and wish them the same. Like a normal person.



In America we have Xmas, Hanukkah, Kwanza, Winter Solstice, New Years Eve, and even Festivus.

Don't know what you Canadians do, you're weird.

kylemittskus


quality posts: 224 Private Messages kylemittskus
mother wrote:In America we have Xmas, Hanukkah, Kwanza, Winter Solstice, New Years Eve, and even Festivus.

Don't know what you Canadians do, you're weird.



You left out Holiday. I'm offended.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

chemvictim


quality posts: 3 Private Messages chemvictim
mother wrote:In America we have Xmas, Hanukkah, Kwanza, Winter Solstice, New Years Eve, and even Festivus.



Uh, yeah. Thanksgiving - New Years' is pretty much happy holidays eligible for me.

I don't care what people choose to say, as long as they don't yell at me about it. Happy whatever.