rjquillin


quality posts: 189 Private Messages rjquillin
chemvictim wrote:There are plenty more like her - they just don't want to pay for their own interception in any form or fashion.

... and they vote...

I put this piece Who Shut Down the Government? by Thomas Sowell I found on Jewish World Review on FB, but what the heck, I can stir it here as well...

CT

cmaldoon


quality posts: 62 Private Messages cmaldoon
bhodilee wrote:
yep, adding my wifes salary and just relying on you all to pay our medical bills as they arise, I'm in the plus column for half the year by paying the penalty.



Even at the full 2.5% of income penalty for 2016?

Now I know this will cause conservatives to choke... But you could look at this like a 2.5% tax increase that simply gets credited back to you to offset health care premiums... :-P. Look the government is HELPING you get insured. *cough*

But really. As a healthy 20 something male, I am on the loosing end of these reforms but I really do find it worth it overall and long term if it works how I think it does. I especially like the profit cap for the insurance companies.

2014 - 20 Btl. Fjellene (10 bot), Urraca Chard (10 bot)
Last purchase: 5/3/14

2013 - 75 btl. 2012 - 98 btl. 2011 - 112 btl. 2010 - 30 btl.
My Cellar

bhodilee


quality posts: 32 Private Messages bhodilee
cmaldoon wrote:Even at the full 2.5% of income penalty for 2016?

Now I know this will cause conservatives to choke... But you could look at this like a 2.5% tax increase that simply gets credited back to you to offset health care premiums... :-P. Look the government is HELPING you get insured. *cough*

But really. As a healthy 20 something male, I am on the loosing end of these reforms but I really do find it worth it overall and long term if it works how I think it does. I especially like the profit cap for the insurance companies.



Assuming 100k combined income (math is easier) $2500 a year in penalty cost. At 400 a month to pay for family coverage it would take me 6.25 months to make up that penalty, leaving me 5.5 months of profit or $2300 in my pocket. I can very likely pay for all my medical expenses (barring something major) for that $2300 savings. As little as we visit the doctor I'm probably pocketing 1k of that as pure profit yearly. Especially if I find a doctor that will negotiate a cash rate.

Basically, what I'm saying is, the penalty, really isn't a penalty if I'm a selfish prick that falls back on the taxpayer to take care of any major medical issue I may have (since they can't refuse treatment right?)

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."

– George Bernard Shaw, author (1856-1950)

tytiger58


quality posts: 74 Private Messages tytiger58
bhodilee wrote:Ah yes, I wasn't factoring in my wife's income. I want to say we pay around 1k a month though for family coverage through her company. I'll ask and get back with you (though damnit, I much prefer hyperbole to facts!)

Wow, I AM a hyperbolic bastard! I guess it's around $400/month for family coverage. Though I still think we'd be ahead to ditch it and pay the penalty and reap the tax payer funked you pay my bills now!

yep, adding my wifes salary and just relying on you all to pay our medical bills as they arise, I'm in the plus column for half the year by paying the penalty.



Yay! more incentive to not do the right thing

What contemptible scoundrel stole the cork from my lunch? ~ W. C. Fields

“Freedom is something that dies unless it's used” Hunter S Thompson




cmaldoon


quality posts: 62 Private Messages cmaldoon
bhodilee wrote:Assuming 100k combined income (math is easier) $2500 a year in penalty cost. At 400 a month to pay for family coverage it would take me 6.25 months to make up that penalty, leaving me 5.5 months of profit or $2300 in my pocket. I can very likely pay for all my medical expenses (barring something major) for that $2300 savings. As little as we visit the doctor I'm probably pocketing 1k of that as pure profit yearly. Especially if I find a doctor that will negotiate a cash rate.

Basically, what I'm saying is, the penalty, really isn't a penalty if I'm a selfish prick that falls back on the taxpayer to take care of any major medical issue I may have (since they can't refuse treatment right?)



Except that really, what is medical insurance for? It's for the big things mainly. Yes it pays for the little things too but as you noted, that stuff is cheap and could be self insured.

What this tax/penalty structure does is lowers the marginal cost of insurance. In your example the cost of coverage dropped from $4800 to $2300. You don't have any more cash to spend than you would have but the margin to be insured is less. Yes it is kinda underhanded but it does swing the insurance gamble math a ton closer to the "get insurance" side.

2014 - 20 Btl. Fjellene (10 bot), Urraca Chard (10 bot)
Last purchase: 5/3/14

2013 - 75 btl. 2012 - 98 btl. 2011 - 112 btl. 2010 - 30 btl.
My Cellar

chemvictim


quality posts: 4 Private Messages chemvictim
rjquillin wrote:... and they vote...



In this case, I'm not sure if they do. But in my very limited personal experience these folks are conservatives, they hate Obama and would not have voted for him or anything with his name attached. They hate anything that might be considered librul but they're as entitled as anybody else. Get my check, that's the bottom line.

bhodilee


quality posts: 32 Private Messages bhodilee
cmaldoon wrote:Except that really, what is medical insurance for? It's for the big things mainly. Yes it pays for the little things too but as you noted, that stuff is cheap and could be self insured.

What this tax/penalty structure does is lowers the marginal cost of insurance. In your example the cost of coverage dropped from $4800 to $2300. You don't have any more cash to spend than you would have but the margin to be insured is less. Yes it is kinda underhanded but it does swing the insurance gamble math a ton closer to the "get insurance" side.



If I can pocket 2300 a year, maybe 1k a year after my "minor" issues that I pay my GP for and then just go ahead and default on anything that required a hospital stay (a shockingly large amount of creditors ignore medical collections), why wouldn't I just take the money and run (or limp if I got hurt)?

I'm not going to by the way, I actually believe in paying my bills, but lots of people are unscrupulous and may opt for this.

Wasn't there a big brouhaha about the maximum fine large companies can be fined is much less than they pay in funding health care for employees so a lot of places would just choose to pay the fine and screw their employees?

Someone, AT&T maybe?, even had an internal memo circluated about it (though that was long ago and may have been hoax).

Basically, if you can eat the fine, take the risk and come out ahead. Why not?

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."

– George Bernard Shaw, author (1856-1950)

kylemittskus


quality posts: 234 Private Messages kylemittskus
cmaldoon wrote:2 questions:
1) who do you think should have health insurance and why?
2) how do you think healthcare should be paid for?



I was typing up a huge response, but I think that I can explain my position pretty simply.

Health care is a business. It should be treated as one by everyone. I suppose that some businesses are subsidized by the govt, though, so I guess this falls into that category. I am, however, against govt subsidies for almost all business.

SWMBO and I pay a little more than 5% of our gross income for medical insurance (PPO). And her employer pays more than we do. Sounds like the penalty would be a win for us.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

canonizer


quality posts: 22 Private Messages canonizer
bhodilee wrote:If I can pocket 2300 a year, maybe 1k a year after my "minor" issues that I pay my GP for and then just go ahead and default on anything that required a hospital stay (a shockingly large amount of creditors ignore medical collections), why wouldn't I just take the money and run (or limp if I got hurt)?

I'm not going to by the way, I actually believe in paying my bills, but lots of people are unscrupulous and may opt for this.

Wasn't there a big brouhaha about the maximum fine large companies can be fined is much less than they pay in funding health care for employees so a lot of places would just choose to pay the fine and screw their employees?

Someone, AT&T maybe?, even had an internal memo circluated about it (though that was long ago and may have been hoax).

Basically, if you can eat the fine, take the risk and come out ahead. Why not?



Being tracked by debt collectors is not a recipe for enjoying life. I think few choose it; rather, they succumb for lack of options.

signed.

bhodilee


quality posts: 32 Private Messages bhodilee
canonizer wrote:Being tracked by debt collectors is not a recipe for enjoying life. I think few choose it; rather, they succumb for lack of options.



Pretty easy, they call, you tell them they are not allowed to call you again. They can't call anymore after that without risking a lawsuit. They can send all the mail they'd like, but that's easy to throw away unopened.

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."

– George Bernard Shaw, author (1856-1950)

cmaldoon


quality posts: 62 Private Messages cmaldoon
bhodilee wrote:
Basically, if you can eat the fine, take the risk and come out ahead. Why not?



So what you're saying is that you'd rather risk a $50,000 medical bill if you or any member of your family gets seriously hurt or ill than pay $20 a week ($1000/year)?

$20 a week isn't going to make or break anything. $50,000 will. That's the point of insurance. On average you lose but you are guaranteed not to lose big time.

2014 - 20 Btl. Fjellene (10 bot), Urraca Chard (10 bot)
Last purchase: 5/3/14

2013 - 75 btl. 2012 - 98 btl. 2011 - 112 btl. 2010 - 30 btl.
My Cellar

bhodilee


quality posts: 32 Private Messages bhodilee
cmaldoon wrote:So what you're saying is that you'd rather risk a $50,000 medical bill if you or any member of your family gets seriously hurt or ill than pay $20 a week ($1000/year)?

$20 a week isn't going to make or break anything. $50,000 will. That's the point of insurance. On average you lose but you are guaranteed not to lose big time.



But if I don't pay, you will. Then all I have to do is not care about collections because having worked in the credit granting industry for a long time I know that if medical collections are the only thing bad on your report, you're getting credit. Seven years later, they drop off and I'm back at square one. Basically, this doesn't incentivize people to get on the insurance if it's cheaper to just pay the fine and take your chances.

Take someone with a lower income than ours and you're talking significantly less fine and more reward.

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."

– George Bernard Shaw, author (1856-1950)

rjquillin


quality posts: 189 Private Messages rjquillin
cmaldoon wrote:So what you're saying is that you'd rather risk a $50,000 medical bill if you or any member of your family gets seriously hurt or ill than pay $20 a week ($1000/year)?

$20 a week isn't going to make or break anything. $50,000 will. That's the point of insurance. On average you lose but you are guaranteed not to lose big time.

This program, if I understand it correctly, ~removes~ the option we ~used~ to have to purchase catastrophic insurance and ~forces~ us to enroll in and pay for services not needed or desired.
FAIL
It's not one size fits all, well, it is, but shouldn't be, and wasn't.

CT

cmaldoon


quality posts: 62 Private Messages cmaldoon
kylemittskus wrote:I was typing up a huge response, but I think that I can explain my position pretty simply.

Health care is a business. It should be treated as one by everyone. I suppose that some businesses are subsidized by the govt, though, so I guess this falls into that category. I am, however, against govt subsidies for almost all business.


I thank you for the simplicity.

Health care is not a normal business.
You pretty much have to use health care in some situations or you die. Additionally the mandatory costs can easily climb to more than 1 years pay. Where else do you find a combo like that?

People without insurance or the ability to pay for major medical procedures still get treated. Who pays for that treatment? Everyone else who CAN pay through higher premiums. What the affordable care act is trying to do is to get everyone to pay in so that everyone is covered for that nasty accident or sickness.

It is the government's job to step in and prevent tragedies of the commons (they are only marginally successful I agree) and I see that there is a compelling case as far as healthcare goes.

2014 - 20 Btl. Fjellene (10 bot), Urraca Chard (10 bot)
Last purchase: 5/3/14

2013 - 75 btl. 2012 - 98 btl. 2011 - 112 btl. 2010 - 30 btl.
My Cellar

cmaldoon


quality posts: 62 Private Messages cmaldoon
rjquillin wrote:This program, if I understand it correctly, ~removes~ the option we ~used~ to have to purchase catastrophic insurance and ~forces~ us to enroll in and pay for services not needed or desired.
FAIL
It's not one size fits all, well, it is, but shouldn't be, and wasn't.



Do you believe that preventitive care is worthless?

I believe that it is likely helpful in preventing minor problems from becoming major problems. If a $200 fix now can prevent a $20,000 fix down the line, I am all for it. If you have standard coverage with free preventitive care (mandated) then there is no reason not to go see a doctor. How is that a bad thing?

2014 - 20 Btl. Fjellene (10 bot), Urraca Chard (10 bot)
Last purchase: 5/3/14

2013 - 75 btl. 2012 - 98 btl. 2011 - 112 btl. 2010 - 30 btl.
My Cellar

rjquillin


quality posts: 189 Private Messages rjquillin
cmaldoon wrote:Do you believe that preventitive care is worthless?

I believe that it is likely helpful in preventing minor problems from becoming major problems. If a $200 fix now can prevent a $20,000 fix down the line, I am all for it. If you have standard coverage with free preventitive care (mandated) then there is no reason not to go see a doctor. How is that a bad thing?

I believe preventative care can be dealt with on a cash basis, as needed.
It's the unnecessary mandated treatments I don't care to pay for, and subsidizing care for others in what clearly is wealth transfer.

CT

kylemittskus


quality posts: 234 Private Messages kylemittskus
rjquillin wrote:I believe preventative care can be dealt with on a cash basis, as needed.
It's the unnecessary mandated treatments I don't care to pay for, and subsidizing care for others in what clearly is wealth transfer.



I could not agree with this more.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

tytiger58


quality posts: 74 Private Messages tytiger58
kylemittskus wrote:I could not agree with this more.



+ infinity

What contemptible scoundrel stole the cork from my lunch? ~ W. C. Fields

“Freedom is something that dies unless it's used” Hunter S Thompson




cmaldoon


quality posts: 62 Private Messages cmaldoon
rjquillin wrote:I believe preventative care can be dealt with on a cash basis, as needed.
It's the unnecessary mandated treatments I don't care to pay for, and subsidizing care for others in what clearly is wealth transfer.



And what happens when you fall off your roof and have treatments for a broken neck that are in excess of $10,000?

Remember that the majority of people in this country would be put in a major hardship from just a $1000 unexpected bill.

2014 - 20 Btl. Fjellene (10 bot), Urraca Chard (10 bot)
Last purchase: 5/3/14

2013 - 75 btl. 2012 - 98 btl. 2011 - 112 btl. 2010 - 30 btl.
My Cellar

chemvictim


quality posts: 4 Private Messages chemvictim
cmaldoon wrote:And what happens when you fall off your roof and have treatments for a broken neck that are in excess of $10,000?



Then the wealth transfer goes to him.

cmaldoon


quality posts: 62 Private Messages cmaldoon
rjquillin wrote:I believe preventative care can be dealt with on a cash basis, as needed.
It's the unnecessary mandated treatments I don't care to pay for, and subsidizing care for others in what clearly is wealth transfer.



Also.... What treatments are mandated?

Remember..... All insurance is wealth transfer...transfer to the hurt. All insurance is gambling too.

2014 - 20 Btl. Fjellene (10 bot), Urraca Chard (10 bot)
Last purchase: 5/3/14

2013 - 75 btl. 2012 - 98 btl. 2011 - 112 btl. 2010 - 30 btl.
My Cellar

mother


quality posts: 15 Private Messages mother

You all really are drinking your own bathwater.

Not going to spend $2300/yr on healthcare without insurance negotiated discounts (cash discounts are 1000% markups) with multiple kids? LOL

That medical debt doesn't matter for getting credit. LOL. Maybe in the years of 2002-2006.

That an person can cover their preventative medical costs in cash, and so (I'm assuming) shouldn't have anything but major medical coverage. LOL. Have you been to the doctor lately?

Rj- I assume you will not use your medicare when you're eligible? Right? Since you don't need it? Don't believe in these transfer payments? They're to you from the young and healthy, but you're already going to get them in a few years.

Kyle- I want to see evidence that you paid for your baby cash! ;)

ROTFL. Seriously, I don't care how much you hate the darkskinned ruiner of planets, or the ACA, you guys are totally ridiculous.

chemvictim


quality posts: 4 Private Messages chemvictim
mother wrote: the darkskinned ruiner of planets



ROFL

Thanks for that, I'm going to use it ASAP.

kylemittskus


quality posts: 234 Private Messages kylemittskus
mother wrote:Kyle- I want to see evidence that you paid for your baby cash! ;)



I don't get it. We paid $2k for Em. SWMBO had insurance because she paid for part and her employer paid for part. We've always had and always will have insurance.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

bhodilee


quality posts: 32 Private Messages bhodilee
mother wrote:You all really are drinking your own bathwater.

Not going to spend $2300/yr on healthcare without insurance negotiated discounts (cash discounts are 1000% markups) with multiple kids? LOL

That medical debt doesn't matter for getting credit. LOL. Maybe in the years of 2002-2006.

That an person can cover their preventative medical costs in cash, and so (I'm assuming) shouldn't have anything but major medical coverage. LOL. Have you been to the doctor lately?

Rj- I assume you will not use your medicare when you're eligible? Right? Since you don't need it? Don't believe in these transfer payments? They're to you from the young and healthy, but you're already going to get them in a few years.

Kyle- I want to see evidence that you paid for your baby cash! ;)

ROTFL. Seriously, I don't care how much you hate the darkskinned ruiner of planets, or the ACA, you guys are totally ridiculous.



First, you should know me well enough by now to know I like to play extremes. But seeing as how my kids go to the doctor maybe twice a year, I bet I'd be under two grand.

Second, I've been a credit analyst for 15 years, I'm intimately familiar with granting credit and by and large medical collections mean TOUCHDOWN! all if that's the only issue on your credit report. Also, banks didn't learn interception from the last mortgage meltdown. You wouldn't believe the loans they're giving out again. It scares me.

Also, I'll go out on a limb and say that the type of people who would seriously consider paying the fine instead joining a pool probably don't care about their credit.

My point was, the penalties are ineffective and do little to force someone to get insurance if the insurance costs are much higher than the penalty, especially at lower income where the penalty is much less then 2500 as median family income is nowhere near 100 grand.

So if I choose to skip insurance, use the emergency room as my GP and then just don't pay, what have we gained?

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."

– George Bernard Shaw, author (1856-1950)

mother


quality posts: 15 Private Messages mother
kylemittskus wrote:I don't get it. We paid $2k for Em. SWMBO had insurance because she paid for part and her employer paid for part. We've always had and always will have insurance.



Right, so you're a have and not a have not.

How does that make your argument any less ridiculous?

bhodilee wrote:
So if I choose to skip insurance, use the emergency room as my GP and then just don't pay, what have we gained?


Sigh. I know. However the right won't allow forced sterilization nor universal healthcare, and the left won't allow debtors prison.

EDIT: In all seriousness, the point of the penalty is to lessen the moral hazard, and even in your fake case it removes the incentive to freeload by nearly 50%. I think your assumptions are laughable though. Dental cleanings will cost you $1000/yr, one office visit per person per year will run another $1200, and lets just pray nobody ends up having asthma or high blood pressure.

bhodilee


quality posts: 32 Private Messages bhodilee
mother wrote:Sigh. I know. However the right won't allow forced sterilization nor universal healthcare, and the left won't allow debtors prison.



Yep. I was shocked that this penalty/tax whatever is basically toothless on an individual basis. Are there income limits? As in, I make 22k with five kids so I'm exempt from mandatory care? If so then we've really solved very little and probably could have spent more time figuring better ways to lower costs.

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."

– George Bernard Shaw, author (1856-1950)

rjquillin


quality posts: 189 Private Messages rjquillin

I have mandatory physicals (FAA) every year, every other year (FAA+DMV) it is more extensive. I pay for these, not insurance; the labs, EKG, vision, all of it. I've paid cash for crown and root canal work. got hit in Hong Kong by a double deck bus; insurance here didn't pay for that one. Have I had insurance claims for other major accidents? Yup. Two broken wrists that required pretty extensive repairs. Major medical for that.
I have paid into medicare since it's inception in 1965, for 48 years. Will I use it, likely, it's not the ACA, where some that haven't paid a nickel will get a free ride. Don't judge me. I've paid my dues.

CT

kylemittskus


quality posts: 234 Private Messages kylemittskus

So we should incentivize pregnancies for people who can't afford health insurance for themselves? Or give people a free pass to go to the hospital any day they have a scratch?

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

rjquillin


quality posts: 189 Private Messages rjquillin

The robes have decreed it's not a penalty, it's a TAX...
..or it wouldn't even exist.

CT

rjquillin


quality posts: 189 Private Messages rjquillin
kylemittskus wrote:So we should incentivize pregnancies for people who can't afford health insurance for themselves?

We already do, it's called AFDC and welfare.

CT

mother


quality posts: 15 Private Messages mother
bhodilee wrote:Yep. I was shocked that this penalty/tax whatever is basically toothless on an individual basis. Are there income limits? As in, I make 22k with five kids so I'm exempt from mandatory care? If so then we've really solved very little and probably could have spent more time figuring better ways to lower costs.



If you have five kids and make $22k, We will probably be subsidizing most of the bill. At least theoretically.

And yes, a single payer option which also would have been applied to those hit with the 'penalty' seems like it would have been much better for the unwashed masses and those of us paying for it. That just wasn't ever going to happen with the Tea Party types and pharma/medical special interests around...

mother


quality posts: 15 Private Messages mother
rjquillin wrote:I have mandatory physicals (FAA) every year, every other year (FAA+DMV) it is more extensive. I pay for these, not insurance; the labs, EKG, vision, all of it. I've paid cash for crown and root canal work. got hit in Hong Kong by a double deck bus; insurance here didn't pay for that one. Have I had insurance claims for other major accidents? Yup. Two broken wrists that required pretty extensive repairs. Major medical for that.
I have paid into medicare since it's inception in 1965, for 48 years. Will I use it, likely, it's not the ACA, where some that haven't paid a nickel will get a free ride. Don't judge me. I've paid my dues.



So you pay lots of money for a rich mans hobby, that's nice. (If you are employed by others as a pilot, you're not paying for your own medicals...) That's also not the point. You also failed to do your homework before traveling abroad (which basically NOBODY we're talking about could do w/o being enlisted) and had to pay out of pocket when unfortunate things happened. Again, completely not the point. Anyone who has ever had any non-trauma induced dental work has paid out the ass for it- what does that prove?

As to your being entitled to your entitlement (lol)- I guarantee you haven't paid scratch compared to what you'll cost the (royal)me when you start taking your entitlement checks and insurance coverage from the Feds. Why do I say this? Because the only way anyone pays in anything close to the benefits they've received is if they die very shortly after they start collecting.

That may sound dickish, but you know it's true. It has nothing to do with the other 95% of Americans lives either.

Nice to know you can admit to feeling entitled though! ;)

chemvictim


quality posts: 4 Private Messages chemvictim
rjquillin wrote:I have mandatory physicals (FAA) every year, every other year (FAA+DMV) it is more extensive. I pay for these, not insurance; the labs, EKG, vision, all of it. I've paid cash for crown and root canal work. got hit in Hong Kong by a double deck bus; insurance here didn't pay for that one. Have I had insurance claims for other major accidents? Yup. Two broken wrists that required pretty extensive repairs. Major medical for that.
I have paid into medicare since it's inception in 1965, for 48 years. Will I use it, likely, it's not the ACA, where some that haven't paid a nickel will get a free ride. Don't judge me. I've paid my dues.



That has potential to be a very cool story, the bus thing. In the case of ACA, I think there are plenty getting a free ride now, and they're not all the stereotypical liberals or minorities that a lot of people think of. I admit I like the idea that these people who just hope that nothing will happen and then stick us with the bill when it does, will at least have to contribute something.

However, overall I'm not excited about Obamacare. It makes me nervous and added bureaucracy is never a good thing. I fear that people who buy their own insurance, like my mother, are going to get stuck with higher premiums. I think I've made it clear in the past that I don't want the government involved in my health care decisions. So no, I'm not thrilled. But this all-or-nothing approach that we seem to have going on right now makes me want to vomit.

Granted, I have more of a personal interest than the average person, but I have been very fortunate. I'm working for at least a few weeks, and I expect to be paid. Not so for everyone, including contractors. So no matter how nervous I am about Obamacare, I'm not going to cheer the shutdown or joke about non-essential employees, or laugh that the gov't shut down and nobody noticed (because plenty of us damn well have noticed). Both sides must remove their heads from their asses and fix this .

cmaldoon


quality posts: 62 Private Messages cmaldoon
bhodilee wrote:

My point was, the penalties are ineffective and do little to force someone to get insurance if the insurance costs are much higher than the penalty, especially at lower income where the penalty is much less then 2500 as median family income is nowhere near 100 grand.

So if I choose to skip insurance, use the emergency room as my GP and then just don't pay, what have we gained?



You missed my point that while the penalties aren't greater than the costs, they functionally make insurance cheaper on the margin.

If insurance costs x and penalties are y then y is a sunk cost and insurance is now marginally x-y

2014 - 20 Btl. Fjellene (10 bot), Urraca Chard (10 bot)
Last purchase: 5/3/14

2013 - 75 btl. 2012 - 98 btl. 2011 - 112 btl. 2010 - 30 btl.
My Cellar

klezman


quality posts: 131 Private Messages klezman
cmaldoon wrote:I thank you for the simplicity.

Health care is not a normal business.
You pretty much have to use health care in some situations or you die. Additionally the mandatory costs can easily climb to more than 1 years pay. Where else do you find a combo like that?

People without insurance or the ability to pay for major medical procedures still get treated. Who pays for that treatment? Everyone else who CAN pay through higher premiums. What the affordable care act is trying to do is to get everyone to pay in so that everyone is covered for that nasty accident or sickness.

It is the government's job to step in and prevent tragedies of the commons (they are only marginally successful I agree) and I see that there is a compelling case as far as healthcare goes.



I haven't read the other responses to this yet, but yes. This. Health care isn't an optional expense, and unless we're willing to let those who can't pay go without then all need to pay into the system. That's how insurance works.

2014: 57 bottles. Last wine.woot: 2011 Wellington Cab & Merlot, Roessler 2009 Bluejay, 2010 Bell Cabernet
2013: 66 bottles, 2012: 91 bottles, 2011: 92 bottles, 2010: 74 bottles, 2009: 30 bottles, 2008: 3 bottles My CT

klezman


quality posts: 131 Private Messages klezman
mother wrote:Sigh. I know. However the right won't allow forced sterilization nor universal healthcare, and the left won't allow debtors prison.



So which side will give in first?
My vote would be for both universal healthcare and debtors prison.

2014: 57 bottles. Last wine.woot: 2011 Wellington Cab & Merlot, Roessler 2009 Bluejay, 2010 Bell Cabernet
2013: 66 bottles, 2012: 91 bottles, 2011: 92 bottles, 2010: 74 bottles, 2009: 30 bottles, 2008: 3 bottles My CT

edlada


quality posts: 6 Private Messages edlada
mother wrote:You all really are drinking your own bathwater.

Not going to spend $2300/yr on healthcare without insurance negotiated discounts (cash discounts are 1000% markups) with multiple kids? LOL

That medical debt doesn't matter for getting credit. LOL. Maybe in the years of 2002-2006.

That an person can cover their preventative medical costs in cash, and so (I'm assuming) shouldn't have anything but major medical coverage. LOL. Have you been to the doctor lately?

Rj- I assume you will not use your medicare when you're eligible? Right? Since you don't need it? Don't believe in these transfer payments? They're to you from the young and healthy, but you're already going to get them in a few years.

Kyle- I want to see evidence that you paid for your baby cash! ;)

ROTFL. Seriously, I don't care how much you hate the darkskinned ruiner of planets, or the ACA, you guys are totally ridiculous.



+1, go the Mother!!

My dogs like me, that is important.

bhodilee


quality posts: 32 Private Messages bhodilee
cmaldoon wrote:You missed my point that while the penalties aren't greater than the costs, they functionally make insurance cheaper on the margin.

If insurance costs x and penalties are y then y is a sunk cost and insurance is now marginally x-y



No I got that, but unless x=y or x > y, a lot of the people who don't have care now aren't really incentivized to get it.

What is the penalty for not paying the penalty?

What is done with the penalty money?

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."

– George Bernard Shaw, author (1856-1950)

bhodilee


quality posts: 32 Private Messages bhodilee
mother wrote:ROTFL. Seriously, I don't care how much you hate the darkskinned ruiner of planets, or the ACA, you guys are totally ridiculous.



Forgot to do this yesterday, but this is the true darkskinned ruiner of planets:



Edit: and the hyperbole matches nicely also.

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."

– George Bernard Shaw, author (1856-1950)