deltal


quality posts: 0 Private Messages deltal

Any update on the wine shipments to MN. I bought some a few weeks ago and now, 'No More Wine for MN'. I know that we are a strange lot here in the Midwest but we need our woot wine. For now I will drop off the daily woot emails. It is no fun to buy stuff if it can not be enjoyed with wine.

usermonster


quality posts: 1 Private Messages usermonster
WilfBrim wrote: I live in Georgia. I don't live in New York. I was born there, but my family (wisely) left when I was 10, and I beat feet out of the Northeast as soon as I could. I have no interest in New York. I wouldn't live there on a bet.



Insecure much?

kylemittskus


quality posts: 229 Private Messages kylemittskus
deltal wrote:Any update on the wine shipments to MN. I bought some a few weeks ago and now, 'No More Wine for MN'. I know that we are a strange lot here in the Midwest but we need our woot wine. For now I will drop off the daily woot emails. It is no fun to buy stuff if it can not be enjoyed with wine.



We don't know specifics but if you read the thread, we have guesses.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

gmanpilot


quality posts: 0 Private Messages gmanpilot

I'm sorry, but I have to defend ELU... I did check with my state regulatory agency and nothing has changed. There has been no indication that WW cannot ship to my and other similarly situated states. To stop doing so without a clear explanation to a loyal customer base is indefensible.

noslensj


quality posts: 42 Private Messages noslensj
gmanpilot wrote:I'm sorry, but I have to defend ELU... I did check with my state regulatory agency and nothing has changed. There has been no indication that WW cannot ship to my and other similarly situated states. To stop doing so without a clear explanation to a loyal customer base is indefensible.


Of course they are going to say nothing has changed. Would you expect them to say, "Whoops, we've been doing it wrong for years?"

****

I can make a direct analogy to a field in which I have personal experience, and in which the stakes are much higher. In the early 1980's EPA wrote rules about when a large industrial facility needs to obtain an air emissions permit for changes and upgrades to the facility. After the kinks were worked out, the program proceeded for quite a few years, with everyone understanding how the rules were being interpreted, Then about 1995 EPA abruptly changed the interpretation of the rules, and began issuing multi-million dollar penalties to facilities for making changes without getting needed permits. EPA (to this day) maintains that nothing has changed. Even as they proceeded to penalize companies who had obtained written determinations that their changes did not require permits. Even despite the fact that the EPA personnel who wrote the rules stated that the way EPA was interpreting the rules conflicted with how the rules were written.

EPA's response essentially was the previous determination was issued incorrectly, that the companies should have known the determination was incorrect, and that they should not have relied on the determinations that were made by the agencies in response to requests for a determination about whether the rule applied.

In the world of regulation, those sorts of things are not changes. Nothing is different from before. If there is any issue it's simply that the previous decisions were in error. And you, permit holder, should have known that what we told you before was not correct.

****

The reality is that as an entity that operates subject to regulatory oversight, you cannot fully rely on guidance provided by a regulatory agency as to what their rules mean. Maybe if you get an opinion from the state Attorney General that might hold some weight - until the next AG came in and rescinded the previous determination.

WW is operating in a circumstance where one state agency has made a specific determination that certain language is to be applied in a specific manner and is ready to act in a certain manner. That automatically brings into question the situation for every other state that uses similar language in its rules.

That leaves WW in a situation of needing to make a risk-reward decision. And that is an individual decision. If I'm operating a three person wine distribution business as a C Corporation out of a rented garage, pulling $200k/year out of the operation and having less than $50k in fixed assets, I'm probably going to be pretty aggressive in my response to a situation such as this. I just don't have very much at stake and I'm generating a good income. If they come after me, I declare bankruptcy, shut the doors and give up my puny investment.

If you change that so that the line of business is 5% of sales, I have hundreds of millions dollars in assets, and could get a penalty that would easily exceed 10x my annual profits out of the business, I'm probably going to approach the situation differently.

kylemittskus


quality posts: 229 Private Messages kylemittskus

I was going to post a far less detailed explanation without an analogous situation:

The laws may not have changed, but the interpretation of them has.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

noslensj


quality posts: 42 Private Messages noslensj
kylemittskus wrote:I was going to post a far less detailed explanation without an analogous situation:

The laws may not have changed, but the interpretation of them has.



Succinctness is a virtue. Clearly you're a better man than I.

ddeuddeg


quality posts: 29 Private Messages ddeuddeg
noslensj wrote:Succinctness is a virtue. Clearly you're a better man than I.

I wouldn't deign to make a judgement on that, but IMO, the detailed post of yours was by far the most erudite we've seen on this topic.
Thanks.

"Always keep a bottle of Champagne in the fridge for special occasions. Sometimes the special occasion is that you've got a bottle of Champagne in the fridge". - Hester Browne


Ddeuddeg's Cheesecake Cookbook

kylemittskus


quality posts: 229 Private Messages kylemittskus
ddeuddeg wrote:I wouldn't deign to make a judgement on that, but IMO, the detailed post of yours was by far the most erudite we've seen on this topic.
Thanks.



As usual, I agree 100%.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

canonizer


quality posts: 22 Private Messages canonizer

Wow, this really stirred up a shitstorm. I suspect Woot! is scared of litigation from the other states because they have similarly patchwork laws. You're affected because we have a million different laws.

signed.

kylemittskus


quality posts: 229 Private Messages kylemittskus

Posted on Oct. 7:

ROGETRAY wrote:Wine.Woot is not able to offer Wine deals in those states currently, but will be opening up additional states as laws and regulations regarding selling wine online continue to evolve.

The regulatory landscape is changing all of the time. We are diligently working through the issues.
"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

dianefreda


quality posts: 9 Private Messages dianefreda
slm9951 wrote:Somerimes, I feel like I am alone in VA with my concerns. I started thinking that most Wooters in VA must live close to DC and could wootleg. I think NY must have many Wooters and not many choices for wootlegging. I am hoping that the country will take notice now that so many states are affected and something will happen to enable the third party shipping thing. Our state legislature has been very uninterested in my complaints.



I live in Va and was "wootlegging" to Georgia (Mom's) but now Ga. is off the list too. It was fun while it lasted though.

ibexscribe


quality posts: 7 Private Messages ibexscribe
dianefreda wrote:I live in Va and was "wootlegging" to Georgia (Mom's) but now Ga. is off the list too. It was fun while it lasted though.



This does tempt me to buy wine when I visit my parents in CA for Thanksgiving and ship it to myself in NY. At least THAT is still theoretically legal for NYers...

HitAnyKey42


quality posts: 29 Private Messages HitAnyKey42
ibexscribe wrote:This does tempt me to buy wine when I visit my parents in CA for Thanksgiving and ship it to myself in NY. At least THAT is still theoretically legal for NYers...



Actually, even that's officially not legal. UPS & FedEx will not ship wine for you, if you tell them what's what's in the box. Or at least they're not supposed to. So it'll depend on how you pack it, whether you bring it in to have it shipped such that you need to speak to someone (or just do a drop off somewhere), and whether that person decides to question whether it's alcohol (or care if it is).

My Cellar
In a Glorious Marriage.Woot with cheron98
NYC Tastings

kylemittskus


quality posts: 229 Private Messages kylemittskus

NEW YORK IS BACK ON THE "TO" LIST

blaculadave wrote:GREAT NEWS EVERYONE! We've had a fantastic late-breaking update. NY shipping is back on!
"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

pseudogourmet98


quality posts: 17 Private Messages pseudogourmet98

X-posted from daily offer thread...

blaculadave wrote:GREAT NEWS EVERYONE! We've had a fantastic late-breaking update. NY shipping is back on!



Anyone see this "staff" post from the Ty offer thread?

bobrush12866


quality posts: 8 Private Messages bobrush12866
kylemittskus wrote:NEW YORK IS BACK ON THE "TO" LIST



Apparently, not so on the plus deals....maybe they'll catch up on that tomorrow...I hope!

Winedavid39


quality posts: 200 Private Messages Winedavid39

Guest Blogger

kylemittskus wrote:NEW YORK IS BACK ON THE "TO" LIST



Confirmed. NY is back in business! very happy indeed.

MarkDaSpark


quality posts: 181 Private Messages MarkDaSpark
Winedavid39 wrote:Confirmed. NY is back in business! very happy indeed.



Whoo Hoo!!!


Someone has to put WD's kids thru college, but why does it have to be me!
*This post is for purposes of enabling only, and does not constitute any promise of helping pay for said enabling. It does indicate willingness to assist in drinking said wine.

bahwm


quality posts: 29 Private Messages bahwm
Winedavid39 wrote:Confirmed. NY is back in business! very happy indeed.


Excellent! Thanks for all of you're hard work on this! I bet you're VERY happy about NY being back in business!

May our love be like good wine, grow stronger as it grows older. ~ Old English Toast

North316


quality posts: 107 Private Messages North316

So why aren't all of the other states? Must not be related to the NY ruling as we thought?

My CT
"Trust your homies on the net", Clark Smith.
R.I.P. Inkycatz - Feb. 2013

cmaldoon


quality posts: 62 Private Messages cmaldoon
North316 wrote:So why aren't all of the other states? Must not be related to the NY ruling as we thought?



Or they worked hardest on clearing NY up bacause the revenue from there is the largest. Smart business. Now they'll continue with the other states and a emphasis on other large ones. (Though I think that VA will be a hard nut to crack)

2014 - 20 Btl. Fjellene (10 bot), Urraca Chard (10 bot)
Last purchase: 5/3/14

2013 - 75 btl. 2012 - 98 btl. 2011 - 112 btl. 2010 - 30 btl.
My Cellar

North316


quality posts: 107 Private Messages North316

The other interest tidbit here, NY is back and okay, DURING the government shutdown, which leads me to believe that whatever the final holdup was, was in woot/amazon/wcc hand's. This simply could have been reviewing an opinion letter by the legal staff that was issues before the shutdown, but I just found it interesting.

Now that this is cleared up, it really would be nice to know what the heck happened in the first place.

My CT
"Trust your homies on the net", Clark Smith.
R.I.P. Inkycatz - Feb. 2013

noslensj


quality posts: 42 Private Messages noslensj
North316 wrote:The other interest tidbit here, NY is back and okay, DURING the government shutdown, which leads me to believe that whatever the final holdup was, was in woot/amazon/wcc hand's. This simply could have been reviewing an opinion letter by the legal staff that was issues before the shutdown, but I just found it interesting.

Now that this is cleared up, it really would be nice to know what the heck happened in the first place.


I didn't realize NY government was shutdown. Haven't heard a peep about that in any of my news outlet. I would think that at least would garner a link from Drudge.

slm9951


quality posts: 14 Private Messages slm9951

WD, PLEASE try to crack the Va nut!!!! Pretty please!

cheron98


quality posts: 123 Private Messages cheron98
North316 wrote:The other interest tidbit here, NY is back and okay, DURING the government shutdown



It's only the federal gov't that's shut down, not the individual states. Since this was a state law issue (presumably), there's nothing precluding the state gov't from acting.

I saw HitAnyKey42 on wine.woot! and clicked "I want one!"

ddeuddeg


quality posts: 29 Private Messages ddeuddeg
cheron98 wrote:It's only the federal gov't that's shut down, not the individual states. Since this was a state law issue (presumably), there's nothing precluding the state gov't from acting.

We realize that you're new to living in NY, so we'll forgive you for believing this.

"Always keep a bottle of Champagne in the fridge for special occasions. Sometimes the special occasion is that you've got a bottle of Champagne in the fridge". - Hester Browne


Ddeuddeg's Cheesecake Cookbook

InFrom


quality posts: 31 Private Messages InFrom
cheron98 wrote:It's only the federal gov't that's shut down, not the individual states. Since this was a state law issue (presumably), there's nothing external precluding the state gov't from acting.

IFTFY (With a tip of the hat to ddeuddeg)

noslensj


quality posts: 42 Private Messages noslensj
cmaldoon wrote:Or they worked hardest on clearing NY up bacause the revenue from there is the largest. Smart business. Now they'll continue with the other states and a emphasis on other large ones. (Though I think that VA will be a hard nut to crack)


And because the precedent came out of NY.

I think we can only speculate about what was going on, because I doubt that woot (and others who might have been involved) would ever reveal what was going on.

But my speculation is that the alcoholic beverage distributors in NY (and likely other states) were leaning very hard on the liquor control boards to shut off third party wine shipments, which led to the opinion in NY that shut things down. Getting that changed required similar behind the scenes efforts in Albany, and likely involved bringing the super-expensive corporate counsel type to work the issue. Maybe even some work getting some legislators to make calls to agency personnel.

The response here wasn't just needing a review of the NY decision by an Amazon attorney to determine how it applied.

Winedavid39


quality posts: 200 Private Messages Winedavid39

Guest Blogger

slm9951 wrote:WD, PLEASE try to crack the Va nut!!!! Pretty please!



We are trying! But yes that is a tough one.

Thanks very much for your patience. can I interest you in some chocolates.. :-)

cheron98


quality posts: 123 Private Messages cheron98
ddeuddeg wrote:We realize that you're new to living in NY, so we'll forgive you for believing this.



No, I've seen 1776. New York courteously abstains.

I saw HitAnyKey42 on wine.woot! and clicked "I want one!"

melaniestl


quality posts: 1 Private Messages melaniestl
CONNIE1150 wrote:Add Missouri to the list. I bought this before and now I can't. There were 2 others I tried to buy and could not! This stinks to high heaven!

This has got to be bad for winewoot. I haven't been able to purchase for over a month.


Stay tuned ...

[/quote]

photo00001


quality posts: 0 Private Messages photo00001
cheron98 wrote:No, I've seen 1776. New York courteously abstains.



Great movie reference!


"Mr. President, have you ever been present at a meeting of the New York legislature?

They speak very fast and very loud, and nobody listens to anybody else, with the result that nothing ever gets done."

ibexscribe


quality posts: 7 Private Messages ibexscribe
noslensj wrote:The response here wasn't just needing a review of the NY decision by an Amazon attorney to determine how it applied.



Amazon magically ships more wine to NY now, too (certainly indicates, at least in my mind, how much Amazon's attorneys would be involved in the whole ordeal, but I'd bet they can afford good ones). If only their deals were as good as Woot's...

noslensj


quality posts: 42 Private Messages noslensj
ibexscribe wrote:Amazon magically ships more wine to NY now, too (certainly indicates, at least in my mind, how much Amazon's attorneys would be involved in the whole ordeal, but I'd bet they can afford good ones). If only their deals were as good as Woot's...


I mentioned Amazon because Amazon is the parent of woot. For a situation such as this I would expect it would be bucked up the ladder to corporate, where Amazon legal and outside legal is probably among the best in the country at working on issues involving state regulation of internet sales. And where they probably also have a lot of experience working the political side of the fence.

chipgreen


quality posts: 186 Private Messages chipgreen
noslensj wrote:I mentioned Amazon because Amazon is the parent of woot. For a situation such as this I would expect it would be bucked up the ladder to corporate, where Amazon legal and outside legal is probably among the best in the country at working on issues involving state regulation of internet sales. And where they probably also have a lot of experience working the political side of the fence.


Unfortunately we also have to consider that wine sales are merely a drop in one of a thousand Amazon buckets, so although they have the resources, they may not have the sense of urgency that we would hope for in a situation like this.

noslensj


quality posts: 42 Private Messages noslensj
chipgreen wrote:Unfortunately we also have to consider that wine sales are merely a drop in one of a thousand Amazon buckets, so although they have the resources, they may not have the sense of urgency that we would hope for in a situation like this.


We also have to consider that as a unit of Amazon they are walking around with a big target on their back.

Take action against a small specialty operation and you're being insensitive bureaucrat inflexibly enforcing rules rather than looking for solutions.

Take the same action against a unit of Amazon and you are a representative of the people standing up to a soulless corporate behemoth that is running amok.

*****

Plus, when it comes time to levy fines and penalties Amazon's pockets are much deeper.

sombraala


quality posts: 4 Private Messages sombraala

Ok, so I'm in MO and am currently sad that we are not on the list since this whole fiasco started. I appreciate that it's not (necessarily) WW's fault/problem, but I guess what I'd like to know is - what do I need to do to try and help rectify the situation?

I'm unaware of any changes in legislation which would have caused the issue, so I'm not exactly sure who to contact about the issue. Do I need to contact my state reps and push them to make changes to the law? Is it a per-winery thing? Is it actually something I could pester WW about?

It's not like I'm a big spender or it's a huge deal for me or anything, but I love having the opportunity to try out some quality stuff on the cheap and frustrating to know that I can't do that right now...

stills75


quality posts: 1 Private Messages stills75

I've be incredibly lucky in IL. One of the few good things with this corrupt state is I seem to be able to order all the wine I want!!

Problem is, I may be taking a new job in WV. I can seem to find anything that says WW can or cannot ship to WV . . . on freethegrapes.org it doesn't show an issue.

Does anyone know for sure if WV is a go / no-go for some, all or most of WW offerings?

Thanks!

North316


quality posts: 107 Private Messages North316
stills75 wrote:I've be incredibly lucky in IL. One of the few good things with this corrupt state is I seem to be able to order all the wine I want!!

Problem is, I may be taking a new job in WV. I can seem to find anything that says WW can or cannot ship to WV . . . on freethegrapes.org it doesn't show an issue.

Does anyone know for sure if WV is a go / no-go for some, all or most of WW offerings?

Thanks!



Prior to the current issue, which is prohibiting shipment to a number of states, West Virginia was generally allowed (provided the wineries had licenses. It is currently on the list of states which WW cannot ship to, however, if the issues get resolved with the remaining statements, WV should be okay again.

My CT
"Trust your homies on the net", Clark Smith.
R.I.P. Inkycatz - Feb. 2013