klezman


quality posts: 178 Private Messages klezman
rpm wrote:A reckless "mistake" isn't a mistake in the ordinary language sense. The ordinary language sense of mistake presumes, or at least implies, an error made in more or less good faith; reporting an item with a reckless disregard for the truth or falsity of the item negates any presumption of good faith and, in fact strongly suggests bad faith.



Fair enough. Silly me for presuming innocence. So three categories it is. To me there is still a major difference between even a reckless unverified story that is later corrected and something put out there deliberately as lies. Maybe not a massive difference, but a difference nonetheless.

I stopped counting bottles. My CT

zTimothyBz


quality posts: 2 Private Messages zTimothyBz
klezman wrote:Fair enough. Silly me for presuming innocence. So three categories it is. To me there is still a major difference between even a reckless unverified story that is later corrected and something put out there deliberately as lies. Maybe not a massive difference, but a difference nonetheless.



Sort of like the difference between manslaughter and murder?

Official holder of unofficial, unauthorized, non-woot gatherings.

rpm


quality posts: 210 Private Messages rpm
zTimothyBz wrote:Sort of like the difference between manslaughter and murder?



Not a bad analogy: from the victim's viewpoint there is no difference at all. With manslaughter/murder, she's still dead.... with reckless disregards/intentional lie, her reputation is still besmirched.

And, regardless of the lesser punishment, he's still a killer/slanderer.

Wine-tasting in 8 words:
Pull lots of corks!
Remember what you taste!

awl85


quality posts: 8 Private Messages awl85

On lighter note!

Go buy Ivanka's stuff!

edlada


quality posts: 8 Private Messages edlada

I find it rather sad and disturbing that the President's senior advisor is hawking the President's daughter's goods while serving in her official capacity. And it is just as disturbing that the President is tweeting about how unfair it is that Nordstroms has dropped his daughter's line. Aren't there more important things going on at the moment?

My dogs like me, that is important.

rpm


quality posts: 210 Private Messages rpm
edlada wrote:I find it rather sad and disturbing that the President's senior advisor is hawking the President's daughter's goods while serving in her official capacity. And it is just as disturbing that the President is tweeting about how unfair it is that Nordstroms has dropped his daughter's line. Aren't there more important things going on at the moment?



at least tweets don't take a lot of time or thought....

In fairness, you'd be miffed if someone did your kid a business dirty, too, I suspect....

but, I agree it's hardly the same thing as (as I used to joke about my job in a black vault at [censored]) worrying about the fate of the Western world.

Wine-tasting in 8 words:
Pull lots of corks!
Remember what you taste!

MarkDaSpark


quality posts: 236 Private Messages MarkDaSpark
rpm wrote:Not a bad analogy: from the victim's viewpoint there is no difference at all. With manslaughter/murder, she's still dead.... with reckless disregards/intentional lie, her reputation is still besmirched.

And, regardless of the lesser punishment, he's still a killer/slanderer.



Especially when the initial "report" was front page and the retraction was buried inside.

Or in today's electronic world, highlighted and any retraction hidden under another section.

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*This post is for purposes of enabling only, and does not constitute any promise of helping pay for said enabling. It does indicate willingness to assist in drinking said wine.

awl85


quality posts: 8 Private Messages awl85

rpm


quality posts: 210 Private Messages rpm
awl85 wrote:Oh, Canada!



Except for the adverse tax effects of giving up your American citizenship, you have the absolute right to go to any country that will take you. Most nations borders are somewhat less porous, and their immigration requirements somewhat more difficult, than ours.... despite what you may think of He Who Must Not Be Named.

Wine-tasting in 8 words:
Pull lots of corks!
Remember what you taste!

chemvictim


quality posts: 4 Private Messages chemvictim
rpm wrote:Except for the adverse tax effects of giving up your American citizenship, you have the absolute right to go to any country that will take you. Most nations borders are somewhat less porous, and their immigration requirements somewhat more difficult, than ours.... despite what you may think of He Who Must Not Be Named.



I interpreted that comment/link in a very different way...

rpm


quality posts: 210 Private Messages rpm
chemvictim wrote:I interpreted that comment/link in a very different way...



OK

Wine-tasting in 8 words:
Pull lots of corks!
Remember what you taste!

bhodilee


quality posts: 34 Private Messages bhodilee
chemvictim wrote:I interpreted that comment/link in a very different way...



They all wanna piece of that poutine.

I think that's a Beyonce song.

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."

– George Bernard Shaw, author (1856-1950)

MarkDaSpark


quality posts: 236 Private Messages MarkDaSpark

Of course, there's this proof of Trump Tie in Russia! ;)


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kylemittskus


quality posts: 258 Private Messages kylemittskus

Can we all agree that $hit is f**ked up?

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

chemvictim


quality posts: 4 Private Messages chemvictim
kylemittskus wrote:Can we all agree that $hit is f**ked up?



It sure is! I don't even know what to think. I'm sure my conservative family members will educate me when I see them this weekend.

MarkDaSpark


quality posts: 236 Private Messages MarkDaSpark
kylemittskus wrote:Can we all agree that $hit is f**ked up?



No more than the previous 8 years.

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kylemittskus


quality posts: 258 Private Messages kylemittskus
MarkDaSpark wrote:No more than the previous 8 years.



Oh my god.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

randysanders


quality posts: 8 Private Messages randysanders
kylemittskus wrote:Oh my god.



I concur.

MarkDaSpark


quality posts: 236 Private Messages MarkDaSpark
kylemittskus wrote:Oh my god.



Exactly what we said for those 8 long years!

BTW, Dems were calling for Comey's resignation before, but now it's wrong?

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*This post is for purposes of enabling only, and does not constitute any promise of helping pay for said enabling. It does indicate willingness to assist in drinking said wine.

rjquillin


quality posts: 289 Private Messages rjquillin
MarkDaSpark wrote:Exactly what we said for those 8 long years!

BTW, Dems were calling for Comey's resignation before, but now it's wrong?

It just wasn't soon enough.

CT

klezman


quality posts: 178 Private Messages klezman
MarkDaSpark wrote:Exactly what we said for those 8 long years!

BTW, Dems were calling for Comey's resignation before, but now it's wrong?



That's a specious argument, and you know it. If Trump truly believed what was in his letter and the one from the deputy AG, he would have fired Comey on day 1. Precisely nothing new has come to light about his actions and how they reflected on the FBI. You also know that it looks awfully bad to fire the person who recently admitted publicly that he was investigating you.

I stopped counting bottles. My CT

klezman


quality posts: 178 Private Messages klezman
kylemittskus wrote:Oh my god.



+1

I stopped counting bottles. My CT

chemvictim


quality posts: 4 Private Messages chemvictim
MarkDaSpark wrote:No more than the previous 8 years.



I understand that Obama-hating has been a big part of your life, and it's hard to let go. I would not try to take that away from you. Are you interested in also discussing what's going on right now? If not, it's okay.

bhodilee


quality posts: 34 Private Messages bhodilee

Personally, I'm enjoying watching this motherMentoser burn down with ABSOLUTELY NO OUTSIDE HELP! It's amazing!

I also see the Trump supporter as the frog that started off in the cold water and doesn't get that it's boiling. I have a family full of these types. Dude is an actual child, I swear to you, he's an Aspie, nobody listens to me, but that motherMentoser is an Aspie.

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."

– George Bernard Shaw, author (1856-1950)

MarkDaSpark


quality posts: 236 Private Messages MarkDaSpark
chemvictim wrote:I understand that Obama-hating has been a big part of your life, and it's hard to let go. I would not try to take that away from you. Are you interested in also discussing what's going on right now? If not, it's okay.



If any of you had truly been this concerned about Obama's lies and prevarications, we could have a meaningful discussion.

But hypocrisy negates any such discussion.


I at least gave Obama a chance during his 100 days in office. Can any of you say the same for Trump?

And I'm not really a Trump supporter, I just can't stand the hypocrisy on either side, which is mostly coming from the Left right now.



Edit: For the record, I don't hate Obama, I just despise him for the harm he did to this country.

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*This post is for purposes of enabling only, and does not constitute any promise of helping pay for said enabling. It does indicate willingness to assist in drinking said wine.

MarkDaSpark


quality posts: 236 Private Messages MarkDaSpark
klezman wrote:That's a specious argument, and you know it. If Trump truly believed what was in his letter and the one from the deputy AG, he would have fired Comey on day 1. Precisely nothing new has come to light about his actions and how they reflected on the FBI. You also know that it looks awfully bad to fire the person who recently admitted publicly that he was investigating you.



Hardly, but go ahead, keep quoting fake news blurbs.

BTW, Flint was just cleared. Clinton had more contact and questionable behavior with the Russians, but by all means, ignore that.

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rpm


quality posts: 210 Private Messages rpm

It really looks like there is no longer any basis for civil discussion of politics here. I think our perceptions of what is real and what is fake differ so greatly that we no longer have a common set of assumptions about the world or a common reference point to determine "fact" - this is a great pity, but real.

Wine-tasting in 8 words:
Pull lots of corks!
Remember what you taste!

jawlz


quality posts: 13 Private Messages jawlz
rpm wrote:It really looks like there is no longer any basis for civil discussion of politics here. I think our perceptions of what is real and what is fake differ so greatly that we no longer have a common set of assumptions about the world or a common reference point to determine "fact" - this is a great pity, but real.



I don't even know that a common reference point for determining "fact" even exists today, at least when discussing contemporary politics. All the big news organizations and periodicals have one way or the other grown increasingly ideological. I guess we could refer to Trump's tweets, which are there for all to see? But deciphering a commonly accepted meaning from them seems a dubious proposition.

I generally think (thought?) of myself as a Republican (albeit a relatively moderate one), though I'm pretty dismayed by the Comey firing and the shifting after-the-fact reasoning supposedly behind it.

MarkDaSpark


quality posts: 236 Private Messages MarkDaSpark
jawlz wrote:I don't even know that a common reference point for determining "fact" even exists today, at least when discussing contemporary politics. All the big news organizations and periodicals have one way or the other grown increasingly ideological. I guess we could refer to Trump's tweets, which are there for all to see? But deciphering a commonly accepted meaning from them seems a dubious proposition.

I generally think (thought?) of myself as a Republican (albeit a relatively moderate one), though I'm pretty dismayed by the Comey firing and the shifting after-the-fact reasoning supposedly behind it.



I don't bother reading Trump's tweets, as they are as useful as the lamestream media.

And I have to concur with RPM. "Facts" have become fluid.

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*This post is for purposes of enabling only, and does not constitute any promise of helping pay for said enabling. It does indicate willingness to assist in drinking said wine.

randysanders


quality posts: 8 Private Messages randysanders

I agree with the above. The media are so ideological, and facts are so fluid that it's becoming hard to come to any reasonable conclusions. I listen to NPR (I know), and I also tune in to the Right Wing station in my area to hear what they have to say.
One thing that I can conclude is that the right wing guys really push the failures, unpopularity and "crimes" of Obama and Hilary Clinton. The truth is that those two are gone and have nothing to do with the present situation. So, why don't they discuss current events instead? What I suspect is that they just want to give their audience confirmation and entertainment (rile them up) rather than informing them. Then I think...is the left-leaning media doing the same for me?

rpm


quality posts: 210 Private Messages rpm
MarkDaSpark wrote:I don't bother reading Trump's tweets, as they are as useful as the lamestream media.

And I have to concur with RPM. "Facts" have become fluid.



Trump's tweets are entertainment. However, they do serve the amazingly useful purpose of keeping the lamestream media off balance by getting inside of their OODA loop.

NB The phrase OODA loop refers to the decision cycle of observe, orient, decide, and act, developed by military strategist and United States Air Force Colonel John Boyd. Boyd applied the concept to the combat operations process, often at the strategic level in military operations. It is now also often applied to understand commercial operations and learning processes. The approach favors agility over raw power in dealing with human opponents in any endeavor.

Wine-tasting in 8 words:
Pull lots of corks!
Remember what you taste!

rpm


quality posts: 210 Private Messages rpm
randysanders wrote:I agree with the above. The media are so ideological, and facts are so fluid that it's becoming hard to come to any reasonable conclusions. I listen to NPR (I know), and I also tune in to the Right Wing station in my area to hear what they have to say.
One thing that I can conclude is that the right wing guys really push the failures, unpopularity and "crimes" of Obama and Hilary Clinton. The truth is that those two are gone and have nothing to do with the present situation. So, why don't they discuss current events instead? What I suspect is that they just want to give their audience confirmation and entertainment (rile them up) rather than informing them. Then I think...is the left-leaning media doing the same for me?



Yes

Wine-tasting in 8 words:
Pull lots of corks!
Remember what you taste!

chipgreen


quality posts: 286 Private Messages chipgreen

I suppose we can thank FOX and MSNBC for popularizing "opinion-based news". CNN tried to buck the trend for awhile but eventually succumbed and are just as bad as the others now.

Thanks to Kyle for reminding me awhile back that Christian Science Monitor is a pretty good source for unbiased news. I gave up watching anything but the local news on TV a couple years ago and have been a happier person for it.

rpm


quality posts: 210 Private Messages rpm
chipgreen wrote:I suppose we can thank FOX and MSNBC for popularizing "opinion-based news". CNN tried to buck the trend for awhile but eventually succumbed and are just as bad as the others now.

Thanks to Kyle for reminding me awhile back that Christian Science Monitor is a pretty good source for unbiased news. I gave up watching anything but the local news on TV a couple years ago and have been a happier person for it.



CNN was relatively unbiased (that is to say mainstream liberal) in its early days - through the fall of the Berlin Wall and (mostly) Gulf War I, but after Ted Turner married Jane Fonda in 1991 CNN moved inexorably to the left. It became a full throated Democratic party outlet during the Clinton years, and was actively hostile to the US in the Middle East during the Bush 43 administration. It's only gotten worse since then.

Wine-tasting in 8 words:
Pull lots of corks!
Remember what you taste!

randysanders


quality posts: 8 Private Messages randysanders

Christian Science Monitor, yes, thanks.
Also Scott Adams' (dilbert.com) blogs are very insightful.

klezman


quality posts: 178 Private Messages klezman
MarkDaSpark wrote:Hardly, but go ahead, keep quoting fake news blurbs.



There was nothing quoted from a news blurb, fake or otherwise. I read the deputy AG's letter and I read both Sessions' and Trump's letters. Neither of them said anything that wasn't known on November 1, 2016. That seems to be to be a plain and simple fact.

I'm not saying Comey should have stayed or should have been fired. I'm saying Trump's "reasons" don't pass the sniff test (or a gut check, if you will). I'm not saying I have evidence of a particular cover up or other such nefarious deeds, but I am saying the whole thing looks contrived. Furthermore, the waffling and conflicting stories coming out of the White House don't exactly lend credibility to the initial story.

Again...I'm not saying I have the answers. I'm not saying Trump is a Russian puppet. I am saying this whole situation doesn't add up, so what's the missing piece or pieces?

I stopped counting bottles. My CT

klezman


quality posts: 178 Private Messages klezman
rpm wrote:It really looks like there is no longer any basis for civil discussion of politics here. I think our perceptions of what is real and what is fake differ so greatly that we no longer have a common set of assumptions about the world or a common reference point to determine "fact" - this is a great pity, but real.



I would disagree, because as soon as you enter the discussion it remains civil. At least the parts you enter. You don't hurl insults or dismiss others' views simply because you disagree. We can all take lessons from you on that front.

On all the other points, though, sadly you're right. Why is it facts are so hard to come by?

I stopped counting bottles. My CT

rjquillin


quality posts: 289 Private Messages rjquillin

Good to see we can still have some civil discourse here.

CT

rpm


quality posts: 210 Private Messages rpm
klezman wrote:There was nothing quoted from a news blurb, fake or otherwise. I read the deputy AG's letter and I read both Sessions' and Trump's letters. Neither of them said anything that wasn't known on November 1, 2016. That seems to be to be a plain and simple fact.

I'm not saying Comey should have stayed or should have been fired. I'm saying Trump's "reasons" don't pass the sniff test (or a gut check, if you will). I'm not saying I have evidence of a particular cover up or other such nefarious deeds, but I am saying the whole thing looks contrived. Furthermore, the waffling and conflicting stories coming out of the White House don't exactly lend credibility to the initial story.

Again...I'm not saying I have the answers. I'm not saying Trump is a Russian puppet. I am saying this whole situation doesn't add up, so what's the missing piece or pieces?



I start with the view that Comey should have been fired long since, last Summer before the election when he usurped the Justice Department's role. But, I digress.

I find the entire kerfuffle over Comey's firing, on both sides, risible. I have gotten to the point that I pretty much don't read the "news" anymore and even less opinion. I try to sort out what I think is going on based on actions, not the talk.

I take it as an article of faith that the intelligence agencies spy on Americans illegally, and that whoever is in power, Democrat or Republican, abuses that information. I also take it as an article of faith that public officials routinely lie to us and have done so for decades. (Relfecting on my lifetime's interest in politics and public affairs, I'm really not sure the last time I could say with confidence that I think I could trust what most government officials said. Maybe, during the Eisenhower administration.)

Wine-tasting in 8 words:
Pull lots of corks!
Remember what you taste!

MarkDaSpark


quality posts: 236 Private Messages MarkDaSpark
klezman wrote:There was nothing quoted from a news blurb, fake or otherwise. I read the deputy AG's letter and I read both Sessions' and Trump's letters. Neither of them said anything that wasn't known on November 1, 2016. That seems to be to be a plain and simple fact.

I'm not saying Comey should have stayed or should have been fired. I'm saying Trump's "reasons" don't pass the sniff test (or a gut check, if you will). I'm not saying I have evidence of a particular cover up or other such nefarious deeds, but I am saying the whole thing looks contrived. Furthermore, the waffling and conflicting stories coming out of the White House don't exactly lend credibility to the initial story.

Again...I'm not saying I have the answers. I'm not saying Trump is a Russian puppet. I am saying this whole situation doesn't add up, so what's the missing piece or pieces?



Really? It was the sentence where you said: "You also know that it looks awfully bad to fire the person who recently admitted publicly that he was investigating you."

That has been discredited as fake.

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