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I would love to know the rationale for adding Viognier to reds. What purpose does it serve?

For all those new to “Labrat” and/or “rattery” ...

Cheron98 has kindly put all information about the Labrat program at the beginning of the Labrat Thread (where she kindly and graciously cross-posts all the labrat posts into one convenient place).

She has the rules of "rattery" there. As well as a listing of the labrats and offers from June 2 of last year (2008).


In essence, you sign up for the labrat program, which makes you eligible to receive an additional bottle from the current offer (via FedEx overnight) if:

a) You purchase the current offer before the deadline (usually 10 am CT, first day of the offer).


There are no set guidelines other than doing your best to present your opinions about the labrat bottle in a timely manner (since there may be some people on the fence about the current offer, and are waiting for your opinions). You can be as creative (or not) as you want. Read thru some of the previous labrats to get an idea. There are a lot of humorous reports, as well as serious ones.


Some have used the UC Davis Wine Scoring System and others have used the Parker 100 point system. Others have just used “It’s Good!”. There is no right or wrong way to report.

For a quick overview of the majority of wine scoring systems, the DeLong Wine Ratings Review is available as a PDF.


DeLong Wine has been on Wine.Woot before with their Varietal Chart and Tasting Books, and sponsors The Century Club for those who have tasted over 100 different varietals (and we have several Wine.Wooters as members, with others on the verge). Check out Century Club thread in the World of Woot Wine for more info.

I was really hoping the century Zin was going to be involved. I am sitting on the fence on this one.......

Jeff in PDX

Liked what I've had from Kunde previously on Woot. Winemaker, what's the drinking window on each of these? And within that window, when would each likely be at its peak?

fairnymph wrote:I would love to know the rationale for adding Viognier to reds. What purpose does it serve?

From what I recall it's a pretty typical finishing touch in some rhone blends. It gives the wine some nice floral hints both on the nose and the palate.

Or I can just be totally having a massive brain fart and it's not that at all.

Appelations?

Also, 0.70 mg/mL is not that much acid. i guess that's a typo, and should be 0.70 g/100mL (7 g/L)

Sorry, I'm feeling picky.

First sucker: MaskedMarvel
Speed to first woot: 0m 13.703s
Last wooter to woot: mill

Mill's getting slow.

fairnymph wrote:I would love to know the rationale for adding Viognier to reds. What purpose does it serve?

Small amounts of Viognier are typically co-fermented with Syrah in the Rhone and Australia. It adds some flavor and aromas to the wine and apparently works better than adding it separately after fermentation. You also don't risk lightening the color of the red wine by adding it after.
Article here

javadrinker wrote:Or I can just be totally having a massive brain fart and it's not that at all.

Or you can be totally having a massive brain fart and that's an accurate answer anyway.

jhoofard wrote:I was really hoping the century Zin was going to be involved. I am sitting on the fence on this one.......

Jeff in PDX

Mmmmm....that Century Zin does sound good as described on the website.....maybe it will magically show up later in the week's second offering (or in the future if not.)

javadrinker wrote:From what I recall it's a pretty typical finishing touch in some rhone blends. It gives the wine some nice floral hints both on the nose and the palate.

Or I can just be totally having a massive brain fart and it's not that at all.

I believe you are correct. Viognier is used in the Rhône region (and California, I guess)to soften Syrah reds.

javadrinker wrote:From what I recall it's a pretty typical finishing touch in some rhone blends. It gives the wine some nice floral hints both on the nose and the palate.

Or I can just be totally having a massive brain fart and it's not that at all.

I have a similar understanding. It's mostly to amp up the aromatics.

esperanto wrote:Appelations?

All 3 are Sonoma Valley. You can see it on the bottle if you expand the picture.

fairnymph wrote:I would love to know the rationale for adding Viognier to reds. What purpose does it serve?

The winemaker will have their own reasons, but two that leap to mind are aromatics and color maintenance. It's also a long-standing Rhône tradition: some of the traditional Chateauneuf-du-Pape red grapes are white.

Odds are pretty good that the Viognier was co-fermented. That's important as fermentation is a chemical process. The addition of the Viognier before fermentation means what comes out is actually different chemically from fermenting them individually and blending afterward. This bumps up the aromatics big-time and, at least according to some, helps the wine maintain its bright color.

That's the 30,000-foot view. The winemaker will likely have stuff to add specific to this blend.

iByron

No shipping to Georgia??
~it happens I guess~

fairnymph wrote:I would love to know the rationale for adding Viognier to reds. What purpose does it serve?

I asked Viognier maker Morgan Clendenen about blending Viognier and Syrah recently. She said it was originally done in the Northern Rhone when Syrah did not fully ripen. Viognier ripens earlier than Syrah and thus boosts the sugar level of the juice. It sounds like it was originally a wine making "fix" for difficult vintages.

Hmmm, CJ must be on a break. She hasn't updated this since the 22nd. So made some changes to this Wine.Woot PSA (Original text by cjsiege) .....

~~~ We interrupt this thread for a Public Service Announcement: ~~~

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psmurf wrote:No shipping to Georgia??
~it happens I guess~

Ordinarily I would agree with you. In this case, however, I'm somewhat thankful for my wallet's sake. There have been too many good wines on Woot recently that I've been stockpiling. Plus this gives me a chance to spend what little I have left on a couple of bottles of Sean Thackrey Durif.

Corrado wrote:If it means anything to you, I wasn't that impressed with the Vallee when I had it a few months after purchasing, but I REALLY liked it about 18 mos later when I had the second bottle (and it didn't seem to be waning).

Two of these wines weren't in CellarTracker yet, so they're likely pretty new to the market. Most New World wine is released "ready to drink," but if these are like the last Kunde set I bought, they'll likely be improve for a few years in the cellar.

Wholeheartedly agree. I just checked my tasting notes on CT from the previous offering and there is definitely that trend present. I wasn't impressed with the bottles I opened soon after purchase but all showed marked improvement after a year or so.

That being said, I may be in on this one but I think I'll wait for some labrat feedback.

Corrado wrote:IIRC, a lot of "Bottle Shock" was shot at Kunde.

True!

daprakash wrote:I believe you are correct. Viognier is used in the Rhône region (and California, I guess)to soften Syrah reds.

Since when do Syrah's need to be softened?

Corrado wrote:IIRC, a lot of "Bottle Shock" was shot at Kunde.

Great wine... terrible movie.

I saw it at the Vaynerchuk preview. It's just full of surprises. Like for example, just when you don't think it can get any worse, it does.

Love me some Kunde though, esp. the Syrah. Definitely in.

For those of you who don't know, Kunde is pretty much right next door to Wellington. Personally, I think I'm going to do a side-by-side with the Syrahs and Merlots.

I have had Kunde wines before, Got them from Winestilsoldout.com and paid about $10 or $11 a bottle.

Cesare wrote:All 3 are Sonoma Valley. You can see it on the bottle if you expand the picture.

maybe i have had too much wine tonight but it certainly wasn't jumping out at me looking at the blown up picture... and the year behind it doesn't really help.

iByron wrote:The winemaker will have their own reasons, but two that leap to mind are aromatics and color maintenance. It's also a long-standing Rhône tradition: some of the traditional Chateauneuf-du-Pape red grapes are white.

Odds are pretty good that the Viognier was co-fermented. That's important as fermentation is a chemical process. The addition of the Viognier before fermentation means what comes out is actually different chemically from fermenting them individually and blending afterward. This bumps up the aromatics big-time and, at least according to some, helps the wine maintain its bright color.

That's the 30,000-foot view. The winemaker will likely have stuff to add specific to this blend.

iByron

I love, iByron, your "according to some" disclaimer on the coloring notes. Some people do vehemently insist there's better color extraction out of the syrah with the cofermentation and maceration. Others insist that explanation is bunk, and that the awesome floral, sometimes slightly sweetish (not literally sweet, just evocative OF sweetness) characteristics of the viognier simply is a natural dance partner to darn good syrah juice (much like, e.g., grenache and mourvedre and a host of others in Chateauneuf also play super nicely with syrah).

Either way, when it comes down to it, if you really want to know what difference it makes, go find a syrah-viognier cofermented blend and compare it to some straight syrahs you can find at the same price point. People do this for a freakin' reason. In my experience, almost universally, the cofermented version kicks the pants off the syrah-alone. It takes a special Syrah batch to hold its own against the cofermented blend.

EDIT: Sorry I missed somes stuff above -- I would buy into the trying-to-emulate-the-proper-ripeness concept above, but I think even in "ideal" syrah vineyards today (if there is such a thing), the viognier is maintained because it does add a touch of complexity to the wine that otherwise might not be there. Any winemaker input on this or the above? I'm a syrah-lover and curious about both historical and present-day uses.

thatguy314 wrote:Great wine... terrible movie.

I saw it at the Vaynerchuk preview. It's just full of surprises. Like for example, just when you don't think it can get any worse, it does.

Love me some Kunde though, esp. the Syrah. Definitely in.

For those of you who don't know, Kunde is pretty much right next door to Wellington. Personally, I think I'm going to do a side-by-side with the Syrahs and Merlots.

Oh bah humbug...I enjoyed the movie. Of course I was pretty liquored up...can you have wine goggles for movies?

auggie24 wrote:Since when do Syrah's need to be softened?

I can identify with your sentiment. My guess would be that the addition of a small amount of Viognier appeals to those that find Syrah to be too powerfully flavored. I do know that in Australia some producers of "Shiraz" have been labelling their wines as "Shiraz Viognier" even though the Viognier added is somewhat minimal. I think even more Viognier can be added to Syrah-based wines in the Côte-Rôtie AOC.

My wife and I visited Kunde vineyards a few years ago and tried these wines. They were pretty good, though I was already pretty drunk during our 10 vineyard tasting run. This is a good price for 3 bottles.

thatguy314 wrote:Great wine... terrible movie.

I saw it at the Vaynerchuk preview. It's just full of surprises. Like for example, just when you don't think it can get any worse, it does.

Love me some Kunde though, esp. the Syrah. Definitely in.

For those of you who don't know, Kunde is pretty much right next door to Wellington. Personally, I think I'm going to do a side-by-side with the Syrahs and Merlots.

The book is "The Judgment of Paris" and it's spectacular. If the movie hasn't ruined it for you already ;)

FWIW I think the Vallee de la Lune that was sent to me was corked because I doubt anyone here would have finished the bottle. The other two bottles that were offered, however, turned out to be decent.

EDIT: will definitely be waiting on the labrats for this one

thatguy314 wrote:Great wine... terrible movie.

I saw it at the Vaynerchuk preview. It's just full of surprises. Like for example, just when you don't think it can get any worse, it does.

Love me some Kunde though, esp. the Syrah. Definitely in.

For those of you who don't know, Kunde is pretty much right next door to Wellington. Personally, I think I'm going to do a side-by-side with the Syrahs and Merlots.

zTimothyBz (aka TimByrd), his friend "I", and I saw it and we all liked it.


Also, Kunde was the winemaker for Humbug, MonkeyPrize, and Polyphemus IIRC.

in for one just cause I like the idea of a GSM+V wine.

dodongo wrote:I would buy into the trying-to-emulate-the-proper-ripeness concept above, but I think even in "ideal" syrah vineyards today (if there is such a thing), the viognier is maintained because it does add a touch of complexity to the wine that otherwise might not be there.

Morgan Clendenen collaborates with Condrieu vintner Yves Cuilleron and regularly travels to the Northern Rhone. Certainly today in Australia, for example, co-fermentation would be done for reasons other than ripeness. But based on the source and her expertise on all things Viognier, the historical explanation is likely true. Analogous explanations apply to blending in Bordeaux as well, like why there isn't much late ripening Petit Verdot planted.

Corrado wrote:If it means anything to you, I wasn't that impressed with the Vallee when I had it a few months after purchasing, but I REALLY liked it about 18 mos later when I had the second bottle (and it didn't seem to be waning).

Two of these wines weren't in CellarTracker yet, so they're likely pretty new to the market. Most New World wine is released "ready to drink," but if these are like the last Kunde set I bought, they'll likely be improve for a few years in the cellar.

Thanks, Corrado. I drank my one Vallee faily soon after it arrived--your personal experience indicates if I buy it again I should hold it a bit before drinking.

We'll see what the winemaker has to say agingwise about the Vallee and the other two wines included in this trio.

I'm a big fan of anything Kunde! I've had the Syrah and really enjoyed it! Mr. Kunde came to my favorite little wine shop in Chicago (Cafe Pyrenees) a while back and I did an 8 course Tapas dinner with a full Kunde pairing.

It must be good if it pulled me out of the rock I'm under, right?!

I got a set. I have a hard time passing on Merlot.
I am avail.