vaaccess


quality posts: 17 Private Messages vaaccess

I'm sick and tired of drinking 1/2 a bottle of wine one night to only have it be bad the next night. I've tried refrigeration, vacuum pumps (manual and electric) and both methods combined with mixed success.

As a specific example...Last night I opened and drank 1/2 a bottle of Vino Noceto Sangiovese last night and vacuum corked it then stuck it in the refrigerator. Today? It's easily dropped in quality. A vinegar taste, etc. Not completely dead, but barely drinkable.

This happens to me all the time and I seem to be dumping 1/4 of the wine that I open when averaged out. I think that could easily justify buying a system **IF** it worked.

So...I know that wine bars often use Nitrogen or a strong vacuum to protect the remaining contents of the bottle. My question is...DO THEY WORK? And, specifically, which ones work versus which ones don't?

Here are some examples of products I'd consider:
The Keeper System - $90

Home Wine Bar System - $399

SoWine Home Wine Bar - $349

Thoughts/Opinions/Etc???

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Lighter


quality posts: 10 Private Messages Lighter

Have you tried dumping half into a 375ml bottle before you start in on the evenings ration? Doing that would be the least manipulation and air exposure.

vaaccess


quality posts: 17 Private Messages vaaccess
Lighter wrote:Have you tried dumping half into a 375ml bottle before you start in on the evenings ration? Doing that would be the least manipulation and air exposure.



I know that that is an option considered to be good, whereby you pour the wine into the 375ml bottle until it is totally full then you cork it.

The problem I have with that approach is that sometimes only want to drink a glass, whereas other times I want to drink three. I really like the idea of being able to drink how ever much I want without worrying about sticking to 1/2 a bottle.

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clayfu


quality posts: 10 Private Messages clayfu

I have the same exact problem as you. I have yet to find a valid solution other than buying a jar with an airtight seal

kylemittskus


quality posts: 229 Private Messages kylemittskus
clayfu wrote:I have the same exact problem as you. I have yet to find a valid solution other than buying a jar with an airtight seal



You crazy kids need to learn to drink more! Problem solved.

In all seriousness, I have no idea but I too am very curious if anyone has any experience with any of the above systems. I was going to recommend two of the three as options even though I have no experience with them.

"If drinking is bitter, change yourself to wine." -Rainer Maria Rilke

"Champagne is a very kind and friendly thing on a rainy night." -Isak Dinesen

vaaccess


quality posts: 17 Private Messages vaaccess

Yeah...I think it's a pretty common problem. Looking forward to seeing how this thread might answer it for everyone!

Maybe I should just get it over with and get this:
WineKeeper
Yes...At $1500 it's pricey, but it will match my wine cooler!

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crusaderRabbit


quality posts: 0 Private Messages crusaderRabbit
Lighter wrote:Have you tried dumping half into a 375ml bottle before you start in on the evenings ration? Doing that would be the least manipulation and air exposure.




I concur. Seriously, I have stored for 7 days and the wine was as good as day 1. The issue of limiting yourself to 1/2 bottle is not solved; I usually enjoy reds for as much as 3 days after opening. The taste changes but not to where I'm displeased. Nitrogen is the theoretical next best answer - if the O2 is completely displaced.

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Cesare


quality posts: 1586 Private Messages Cesare
vaaccess wrote:I know that that is an option considered to be good, whereby you pour the wine into the 375ml bottle until it is totally full then you cork it.

The problem I have with that approach is that sometimes only want to drink a glass, whereas other times I want to drink three. I really like the idea of being able to drink how ever much I want without worrying about sticking to 1/2 a bottle.



You know that 187.5 and 500ml bottles exist right? :P
I have all different size empties around, I can perfectly save 1/4 or 1/2 or 3/4 of a 750 anytime.

-il Cesare
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“In the entire world there are only a few sounds that bring joy to all but the most jaded. One is the murmur of a kitten purring. Another is the thwack of a well-pitched baseball hitting a perfectly swung bat. And the third is the pop of a cork being pulled from a bottle of wine.” —George Taber

vaaccess


quality posts: 17 Private Messages vaaccess
Cesare wrote:You know that 187.5 and 500ml bottles exist right? :P
I have all different size empties around, I can perfectly save 1/4 or 1/2 or 3/4 of a 750 anytime.



Hmmmm....Maybe I need to reconsider that option...

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evanssm1


quality posts: 3 Private Messages evanssm1
vaaccess wrote:
So...I know that wine bars often use Nitrogen or a strong vacuum to protect the remaining contents of the bottle. My question is...DO THEY WORK? And, specifically, which ones work versus which ones don't? Thoughts/Opinions/Etc???



I rarely have this issue since we tend to finish a bottle the night that we open it. In the event that we do not I use a Nitrogen, Carbon Dioxide, & Argon mixture which for us works great. For instance we opened a double magnum two weeks ago and I gassed it each night and the wine did not change much over a five day period. Here is the LINK of what we use.

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gcdyersb


quality posts: 141 Private Messages gcdyersb
crusaderRabbit wrote:I concur. Seriously, I have stored for 7 days and the wine was as good as day 1. The issue of limiting yourself to 1/2 bottle is not solved; I usually enjoy reds for as much as 3 days after opening. The taste changes but not to where I'm displeased. Nitrogen is the theoretical next best answer - if the O2 is completely displaced.



I like the 375 mL option, theoretically. Usually between my gf and me, we take down the full bottle in one meal. If I just want a glass or two, I make sure I grab a wine I wouldn't mind demoting to cooking duty.

Any of these options has drawbacks. The 375 mL introduces oxygen. Refrigeration actually increases solubility of gases in the wine, though cool temperature will slow reaction rates. Putting inert gas in removes oxygen, but the partial pressure of the volatile esters is always lower.

I think it's this last problem that is hardest to defeat. The bouquet is a big part of high quality wine and there's no clear solution to halting its degradation over time.

Cabernet Franc: it's not just for blending! It's also for blogging.

afranke


quality posts: 10 Private Messages afranke
Lighter wrote:Have you tried dumping half into a 375ml bottle before you start in on the evenings ration? Doing that would be the least manipulation and air exposure.



I've found the screw-cap 375's from the Angel Paille offering a few months back to be perfect for this.

cotillion


quality posts: 4 Private Messages cotillion

I've heard the bottles of compressed nitrogen do a fine job of preserving wines. You just stick the end into the wine bottle above the liquid level, spray for a second or two, and recork. The nitrogen displaces all the oxygen and pretty much covers the wine to keep it from weakening.

They sell them for like 15 bucks a can, which can apparently fill over 100 bottles of wine each.

I know I've seen that these work well, but I can't find the source. Try International Wine Accessories - they carry them.

vaaccess


quality posts: 17 Private Messages vaaccess
evanssm1 wrote:I rarely have this issue since we tend to finish a bottle the night that we open it. In the event that we do not I use a Nitrogen, Carbon Dioxide, & Argon mixture which for us works great. For instance we opened a double magnum two weeks ago and I gassed it each night and the wine did not change much over a five day period. Here is the LINK of what we use.



Thanks for the info.

Did you gas it each night as a maintenance thing or did you do it each night because you were drinking it each night?

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vaaccess


quality posts: 17 Private Messages vaaccess
gcdyersb wrote:I like the 375 mL option, theoretically. Usually between my gf and me, we take down the full bottle in one meal. If I just want a glass or two, I make sure I grab a wine I wouldn't mind demoting to cooking duty.

Any of these options has drawbacks. The 375 mL introduces oxygen. Refrigeration actually increases solubility of gases in the wine, though cool temperature will slow reaction rates. Putting inert gas in removes oxygen, but the partial pressure of the volatile esters is always lower.

I think it's this last problem that is hardest to defeat. The bouquet is a big part of high quality wine and there's no clear solution to halting its degradation over time.



Are you saying that keeping a wine cool, but not refrigerator cold is the best approach? And that refrigeration is not a good idea? Just making sure I'm reading that correctly...

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justinrsanderson


quality posts: 1 Private Messages justinrsanderson
vaaccess wrote:Are you saying that keeping a wine cool, but not refrigerator cold is the best approach? And that refrigeration is not a good idea? Just making sure I'm reading that correctly...



I posted a similar thread on another wine forum I observe, CellarTracker. I generally trust their opinions spot on. To summarize, just recork or dump in to a smaller bottle. Older wines should be refrigerated, and left out an hour or two before drinking to allow for drinking temp to arrive. Eric, the mod, even offers his left over vacuvin pump, and can of preservation gas (because they don't work, for him). Here's a link to the discussion: Cellar Tracker Discussion

Edit: new opinions popping up that gas works better than recork only. I imagine this is only for oxidation/spoilage issues, but there are enough proponents for me to try it. Maybe it will be offered during gift week?

"If it smells done, it's done. If it smells burnt, it's burnt. If it don't smell, it ain't done yet."

vaaccess


quality posts: 17 Private Messages vaaccess
justinrsanderson wrote:I posted a similar thread on another wine forum I observe, CellarTracker. I generally trust their opinions spot on. To summarize, just recork or dump in to a smaller bottle. Older wines should be refrigerated, and left out an hour or two before drinking to allow for drinking temp to arrive. Eric, the mod, even offers his left over vacuvin pump, and can of preservation gas (because they don't work, for him). Here's a link to the discussion: Cellar Tracker Discussion

Edit: new opinions popping up that gas works better than recork only. I imagine this is only for oxidation/spoilage issues, but there are enough proponents for me to try it. Maybe it will be offered during gift week?



So, what say you WineDavid...Any chance you or Woot will have something like this offered?

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rpm


quality posts: 170 Private Messages rpm

I don't think there's any really satisfactory 'fix' other than not to leave any left over

It also depends on what you're drinking.

Most whites, of course, simply go back in the cooler or fridge with the cork in and -- unless we're talking about aged serious whites -- are pretty much fine for a day or two. Not much more. Better whites could be poured off into a 375ml bottle and tightly corked, but I've rarely done it.

Reds are mostly what we're talking about. It's all over the lot: some reds, young and tannic, benefit from being left in the bottle (or even a decanter) overnight or even longer. Others, especially more delicate wines, or aged wines, cannot be held over no matter what you do. Most ordinary to good reds under 10 can best be split at opening, with half put into a 375ml bottle and the other half into a decanter or carafe. Cab, Zin and Syrah/Pets wines usually hold fairly well, wines that are more acidic to begin with, such as Chianti, do not. Similarly, in my experience, Pinot Noir does not overnight very well, even in a half-bottle.

For a long time, especially with mid-grade Cab (e.g BV Rutherford and equivalents), we almost always split the bottle, putting half into a 375ml bottle and corking it immediately. More recently, however, we finish the bottle.

Wine-tasting in 8 words:
Pull lots of corks!
Remember what you taste!

gcdyersb


quality posts: 141 Private Messages gcdyersb
vaaccess wrote:Are you saying that keeping a wine cool, but not refrigerator cold is the best approach? And that refrigeration is not a good idea? Just making sure I'm reading that correctly...



My statement was ambiguous. The colder, the more soluble gases are. The colder, the slower the reaction rates. Good and bad both, though I'd bet the latter part wins out.

Cabernet Franc: it's not just for blending! It's also for blogging.

evanssm1


quality posts: 3 Private Messages evanssm1
vaaccess wrote:Thanks for the info.

Did you gas it each night as a maintenance thing or did you do it each night because you were drinking it each night?



I gassed it each night because we were drinking it each night, otherwise you would not have to gas it again until you open the bottle.

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vaaccess


quality posts: 17 Private Messages vaaccess
evanssm1 wrote:I gassed it each night because we were drinking it each night, otherwise you would not have to gas it again until you open the bottle.



Ok, thanks. Another question for those that know...

Do you expel enough gas to fill the empty part of the bottle or just enough to create a layer on top of the wine to prevent Oxygen from hitting it?

All this pondering/talk is really making me like the box wine concept a lot more. Too bad it doesn't work well for aging yet...

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evanssm1


quality posts: 3 Private Messages evanssm1
vaaccess wrote:Ok, thanks. Another question for those that know...

Do you expel enough gas to fill the empty part of the bottle or just enough to create a layer on top of the wine to prevent Oxygen from hitting it?

All this pondering/talk is really making me like the box wine concept a lot more. Too bad it doesn't work well for aging yet...



You put in enough to create a layer over the wine. The directions are for a 750ml bottle to spray one second then two or three short bursts. For every bottle size larger you spray for an extra second.

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vaaccess


quality posts: 17 Private Messages vaaccess

So, what are the benefits of the Nitrogen systems that are used at Wine Bars versus using a spray can to spray the nitrogen in?

With the bigger systems, does it displace the wine with Nitrogen to ensure the wine never touches Oxygen?

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vaaccess


quality posts: 17 Private Messages vaaccess
vaaccess wrote:So, what are the benefits of the Nitrogen systems that are used at Wine Bars versus using a spray can to spray the nitrogen in?

With the bigger systems, does it displace the wine with Nitrogen to ensure the wine never touches Oxygen?



Anyone know???????

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evanssm1


quality posts: 3 Private Messages evanssm1
vaaccess wrote:So, what are the benefits of the Nitrogen systems that are used at Wine Bars versus using a spray can to spray the nitrogen in?

With the bigger systems, does it displace the wine with Nitrogen to ensure the wine never touches Oxygen?



I do not actually know the answer but I speculate there is not much of a difference. The gas mixture is heavier than oxygen so as long as there is enough to separate the wine from the oxygen the two different systems should have the same outcome. This is only speculation though not a direct answer.

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vaaccess


quality posts: 17 Private Messages vaaccess
evanssm1 wrote:I do not actually know the answer but I speculate there is not much of a difference. The gas mixture is heavier than oxygen so as long as there is enough to separate the wine from the oxygen the two different systems should have the same outcome. This is only speculation though not a direct answer.



Actually...I think I answered my own question. As you use the spout to release the wine, the pressure from the Nitrogen forces wine out through the spout. Essentially, the Nitrogen replaces the wine.

So...It is in fact much better. And, people have had much better results with that versus just spraying nitrogen on top...

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vaaccess


quality posts: 17 Private Messages vaaccess

So...I bought The Keeper (Though I *JUST* realized that the link I originally posted has it for less than I just bought it for! DOH!!!)

It seemed to be the best technique. I will report back as to how things go. I don't think I'll go super-scientific and do double-blind taste tests. For me, the real answer is going to be...Can I open a bottle of good red wine and drink it over the course of 5 days without any loss in taste, etc!

We shall see...

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hld1970


quality posts: 16 Private Messages hld1970

The wine preserver below in my signature is very, very, good, IMHO. Check it out.

______________________________________________
"My only regret in life is that I didn't drink more wine." --Hemingway

vaaccess


quality posts: 17 Private Messages vaaccess

Delete This Post...

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vaaccess


quality posts: 17 Private Messages vaaccess
vaaccess wrote:So...I bought The Keeper (Though I *JUST* realized that the link I originally posted has it for less than I just bought it for! DOH!!!)

It seemed to be the best technique. I will report back as to how things go. I don't think I'll go super-scientific and do double-blind taste tests. For me, the real answer is going to be...Can I open a bottle of good red wine and drink it over the course of 5 days without any loss in taste, etc!

We shall see...



End result??? Wonderful news!!!

The WineKeeper is working as I would have expected/hoped. At first I wasn't sure how the system was working because I must have gotten a bad spout unit, but I spoke with the owner of the company and he quickly sent out a replacement. End result? I couldn't be happier and now I can drink my good wines without needing to down the whole bottle in a night. If you've been frustrated with storing a wine, I highly recommend a system like this one.

I'm getting ready to send Norm (the owner) an e-mail to let him know that my issue is resolve and also ask him if he has a preferred place for everyone to go to buy one if you are interested...Who knows...Maybe he and WineDavid can come up with some sort of side deal for the site.

Happy wine consuming everyone.

Mike

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vaaccess


quality posts: 17 Private Messages vaaccess
vaaccess wrote:

I'm getting ready to send Norm (the owner) an e-mail to let him know that my issue is resolve and also ask him if he has a preferred place for everyone to go to buy one if you are interested...Who knows...Maybe he and WineDavid can come up with some sort of side deal for the site.



I received a follow-up e-mail from the owner.

Here is a list of Internet suppliers in alphabetical order:
Beverage Factory
International Wine Accessories
Vintage Cellars
Wine Accessories Unlimited

You can also go directly to the source:
http://www.winekeeper.com/

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jmpdelos


quality posts: 1 Private Messages jmpdelos

Another option that works well and is cheap are collapsible plastic "platypus" bottles. I use the regular 1 liter bottles (great for taking a bottle of wine in the backpack as well) but they even make them explicitly as wine keepers nowadays in 750ml with a printed exterior instead of the clear plastic. Of course the wine version costs more.

Jeff

http://www.rei.com/product/781836

bkarlan


quality posts: 46 Private Messages bkarlan

Wow, I am reviving a dead thread, how did I get sent here? Anyway, here is what I am doing,

I am giving this a shot. http://www.winesave.com/. Some food safe Argon gas once I transfer it to a smaller bottle.

I have a few vintage vac sealers and they really dont do that much.

If your bottles are sitting more than 3-4 days I haven't noticed a difference in the vintage vac and just recorking it.

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