I have enough wine, I do not need to buy over priced wine from the restaurant. Any chance I can get to drink my own wine, I take it.

hogfatt wrote:I have enough wine, I do not need to buy over priced wine from the restaurant. Any chance I can get to drink my own wine, I take it.

+1000

I try to find local restraunts that don't charge corkage, otherwise I stick to ice tea or beer. I don't buy wine from restruants because of the horrendous markup and often find I can get a full bottle at the store for the same price I paid for just a glass.

Didn't know that was done. Not sure if there are any places around here that even do that.

Only if the restaurant doesn't yet have their liquor license--then they often have no fee or its tiny.

I live in a semi-dry county where most restaurants are only allowed to sell beer and wine coolers. However, many of them allow people to bring their own wine. That's the only time I would bring my own because I'm too lazy otherwise.

I'm pretty certain it's not allowed here in Ohio.

North316 wrote:I'm pretty certain it's not allowed here in Ohio.

It's interesting what is allowed/not allowed in various parts of the country, and sometimes even within a single county. And of course, sometimes restaurants don't necessarily observe laws that some would consider antiquated, and sometimes the authorities look the other way. According to a friend who used to be in law enforcement, in NY at least, probably in many other states, a restaurant without a license to serve alcohol is not permitted to let you bring in your own and consume it on premises. Again, often not strictly enforced.

swantner wrote:Didn't know that was done. Not sure if there are any places around here that even do that.

For an example. Here in SoCal my favorite no corkage restruant is La Grande Orange in Pasadena. Their policy is no corkage on the first bottle and $5 on subsequent bottles and the food is quite good, they are at a gold line light rail stop so there is no driving involved and they make an awesome sangria.

Corkage: a fee charged by restaurants to prevent one from bringing in one's own wine. With fees ranging from $15-$40 a bottle in local restaurants in South Florida, unless I was bringing a $100 bottle of wine, it's cheaper to buy a glass or two at the restaurant.

There's no hard and fast answer to whether it makes sense to bring your own wine or not. Obviously, if a restaurant doesn't have a liquor license and will permit you to bring wine, it makes sense and I do it.

I understand the resistance to paying a lot for very mediocre wine on many restaurant wine lists - wines that you could get at Costco or even the local liquor store for 1/3 the price or less. In such places, I order a glass of the most drinkable wine with the food and let it go at that. I am unlikely to try to bring a bottle to a place with a lousy wine list.

Standard mark-ups used for restaurants used to be three times wholesale or twice retail (which work out to pretty much the same thing where the standard retail price (as shown in the Beverage Media) is 150% of wholesale). You sometimes see higher mark-ups, as much as three times retail is more and more common, but beyond that there is serious customer resistance. You very occasionally see lower mark-ups, as little as retail +10% (i.e. 165% of wholesale cost, maybe even higher if the wine was bought at a special "post off" price).

Mark-ups for older wines vary exceptionally widely. Some places charge something close to current market price for well-known marques and vintages, others charge some multiple of their cost. Depends when they bought the wine. In the '80s, we bought wine in small New York restaurants that had been bought in the '60s, paying prices that were less than 1/2 of what the wine would have sold for if it were available (and did at auction). Go figure.

Knowing that a restaurant makes its money more on the wine than the food, if a restaurant has a good list, I am generally inclined to buy from the list and, in doing so, try something I might otherwise not have that will go with the food. Without being extravagant.

On the other hand, I have also taken special bottles - very high end, fully-aged, wines not on the restaurant's list or (usually aged) family wines - to restaurants and paid corkage.

Whenever I do that, I try to order at least one bottle off of the wine list as well, and I make it a point to let the sommelier taste the wine I've brought, and my tip takes my having brought a bottle into account regardless of corkage. You want a restaurant to regard you as a customer they're happy to see, not as the cheapskate who's always looking to shave a few pennies.

Most restaurants in our part of Texas say TABC is enforcing a no corkage policy if the restaurant has any type of liquor license (so we can only take wine or beer into our local pizza place which has no liquor license). Boo Hiss -- and most wine lists at the restaurants near us are uninspired & way over priced. We're held captive by the two big distributors & the wine lists are nearly identical at several restaurants in the area,

We have to go to Houston, San Antonio or Austin to get any interesting wine lists (which are still overpriced!)

Anybody else in TX run into that same 'no corkage' rhetoric?

Restaurants with 'no corkage' policies and bad (meaning variously, overpriced, poor quality, or both) wine lists are shooting themselves in the foot IMHO.

With a little effort, they can find more interesting wines which are not any more expensive than the 'usual suspects', but good.

Even standard lists which have only OK wine, are better bets if the pricing is fair, because people will drink more if they think they're not being gouged.

rpm wrote:

Standard mark-ups used for restaurants used to be three times wholesale or twice retail (which work out to pretty much the same thing where the standard retail price (as shown in the Beverage Media) is 150% of wholesale). You sometimes see higher mark-ups, as much as three times retail is more and more common, but beyond that there is serious customer resistance. You very occasionally see lower mark-ups, as little as retail +10% (i.e. 165% of wholesale cost, maybe even higher if the wine was bought at a special "post off" price).

Mark-ups for older wines vary exceptionally widely. Some places charge something close to current market price for well-known marques and vintages, others charge some multiple of their cost. Depends when they bought the wine. In the '80s, we bought wine in small New York restaurants that had been bought in the '60s, paying prices that were less than 1/2 of what the wine would have sold for if it were available (and did at auction). Go figure.

Knowing that a restaurant makes its money more on the wine than the food, if a restaurant has a good list, I am generally inclined to buy from the list and, in doing so, try something I might otherwise not have that will go with the food. Without being extravagant.

On the other hand, I have also taken special bottles - very high end, fully-aged, wines not on the restaurant's list or (usually aged) family wines - to restaurants and paid corkage.

Whenever I do that, I try to order at least one bottle off of the wine list as well, and I make it a point to let the sommelier taste the wine I've brought, and my tip takes my having brought a bottle into account regardless of corkage. You want a restaurant to regard you as a customer they're happy to see, not as the cheapskate who's always looking to shave a few pennies.

So how much do you tip on a $100 bottle of wine ($40+ retail, $35 Costco or winery) that you buy at the restaurant? Or if you bring it in (assume same price point, but not readily available juice) with $20 corkage? Different tip
If there isn't a sommelier in either circumstance?

Thanks!

I've also never heard of this. Most of the 2-4 star restaurants in St. Louis that have wine lists mark up their wine about 3+ times the retail price and it's all lousy, cheap stuff. I really wish any of that was an over-exaggeration. I'd love to be able to have a glass or two of wine while dining out more often.

StarM wrote:So how much do you tip on a $100 bottle of wine ($40+ retail, $35 Costco or winery) that you buy at the restaurant? Or if you bring it in (assume same price point, but not readily available juice) with $20 corkage? Different tip
If there isn't a sommelier in either circumstance?

Thanks!

Depends on the service, of course, but my rule of thumb is to tip the same on wine I buy in a restaurant as the bill generally - 20% as a base from which to move up or down.

Unless it were a family wine (old or not), I'd be unlikely to bring in a $100 value bottle to a place with a wine list. In the case of a family wine usually $20-30. I have tipped as much as $50 on 20-30+ year old bottles of California Cabernet Sauvignon from legendary years (e.g. 1970). In those cases, though, corkage was waived because they were as eager to taste it as I was to drink it.

rpm wrote:Depends on the service, of course, but my rule of thumb is to tip the same on wine I buy in a restaurant as the bill generally - 20% as a base from which to move up or down.

Unless it were a family wine (old or not), I'd be unlikely to bring in a $100 value bottle to a place with a wine list. In the case of a family wine usually $20-30. I have tipped as much as $50 on 20-30+ year old bottles of California Cabernet Sauvignon from legendary years (e.g. 1970). In those cases, though, corkage was waived because they were as eager to taste it as I was to drink it.

True -- I was just trying to compare apples to apples ....

Point taken on the tip %, but something galls me about tipping close to the wholesale value of a wine when I know the markup is approaching 300% & there's no sommelier & the wait staff has no clue how to serve the wine. I have spoken to the FoH manager at our only "prime" steakhouse within 150 miles after having the wine list bear no resemblance to what was actually in stock, waiter shred the cork, didn't offer to decant, filled the first glass almost to the brim, etc. (ended up with a 2005 Darioush after the waiter went back & forth several times). No corkage allowed.

It's times like this that i miss living in a large urban area -- Frustrating when you just want a decent bottle of wine with a nice dinner out. This is why we eat (& drink) at home .... ;-)

StarM wrote:True -- I was just trying to compare apples to apples ....

Point taken on the tip %, but something galls me about tipping close to the wholesale value of a wine when I know the markup is approaching 300% & there's no sommelier & the wait staff has no clue how to serve the wine. I have spoken to the FoH manager at our only "prime" steakhouse within 150 miles after having the wine list bear no resemblance to what was actually in stock, waiter shred the cork, didn't offer to decant, filled the first glass almost to the brim, etc. (ended up with a 2005 Darioush after the waiter went back & forth several times). No corkage allowed.

It's times like this that i miss living in a large urban area -- Frustrating when you just want a decent bottle of wine with a nice dinner out. This is why we eat (& drink) at home .... ;-)

Understandable reactions. In your circumstances, no doubt eating at home is both a better value and far more enjoyable - except of course you're doing the cooking and clean up. It might almost be worth a few $$ - especially when you're having friends over - to hire a local kid or two to serve and clean up. You can teach them the basics and they might learn something about food and wine.

SWMBO is an outstanding cook, and usually prefers her cooking to all but the best restaurants. (so do I) And she really dislikes paying New York prices for mediocre food. We eat in a lot more than we used to ....

One think I have noticed: if a wine list is really weak, you may be better off just having one or two glasses instead of buying a bottle. Not the usual advice, but at least if you really don't like the wine much, you can limit yourself to a glass. Why pay inflated prices for a whole bottle when it's not much better a deal than the by the glass price?

North316 wrote:I'm pretty certain it's not allowed here in Ohio.

For the most part, it's not allowed in Michigan. The only alcohol that can be consumed is that which has been purchased (from a licensed wholesaler) by the restaurant. The only exception is that hotels in "resort areas" can charge corkage fees for BYO.

Some places get around this by doubling as wine shops (distinct dining and retail sections). In these places, you can select a bottle from the retail section and they'll add $10-15 corkage. Unfortunately, that still doesn't allow you a special bottle from home to dinner.

chukon99 wrote:For the most part, it's not allowed in Michigan. The only alcohol that can be consumed is that which has been purchased (from a licensed wholesaler) by the restaurant. The only exception is that hotels in "resort areas" can charge corkage fees for BYO.

Some places get around this by doubling as wine shops (distinct dining and retail sections). In these places, you can select a bottle from the retail section and they'll add $10-15 corkage. Unfortunately, that still doesn't allow you a special bottle from home to dinner.

How the hell do you live in a commie state like that?

I am very glad to live in California where laws on wine are quite lenient. A typical date with SWMBO begins with selecting a bottle from the cellar and then heading out to one of many local restaurants that allow corkage. I do not mind paying up to $20 for corkage to reimburse the restaurant for the standard markup they are missing. I'll do this at $12/ plate restaurants and $30/ plate places. I have had much more success bringing wines than taking my chance on a mediocre wine list.

I didn't even know you could do that. I live in Oklahoma where I can't even order any alcohol online. You have to go to a retailer and order it through them. I didn't find any laws to specify you couldn't do this, but no place I've ever been to or currently go have I ever seen any thing like this.... Would be way more satifying than the crazy mark ups and half assed selections.

catlavander wrote:I didn't even know you could do that. I live in Oklahoma where I can't even order any alcohol online. You have to go to a retailer and order it through them. I didn't find any laws to specify you couldn't do this, but no place I've ever been to or currently go have I ever seen any thing like this.... Would be way more satifying than the crazy mark ups and half assed selections.

When I was in the Army in Oklahoma in the 1970s, there was no liquor by the drink at nightclubs or restaurants. You had to join the "club" at each place and (in theory) bring your own bottle. Most people did, actually. They'd put your name on it and set it up behind the bar. You paid a "set up" fee for each drink you consumed - for mixers, etc.

In restaurants, most would let you bring wine (but you had to keep it in a brown bag, IIRC) and charge you a "set up" fee. Others wouldn't. You could get beer some places, but no wine or liquor.

I actually drank pretty well in Oklahoma for very cheap because: 1) the Army Class VI store sold a pretty good selection of (known label)California and European wines at very cheap prices. Especially strong in German wine. 2) we had an Australian exchange officer who brought in the highest quality Australian wines (lots of Grange Hermitage) in the diplomatic pouch as part of his entertainment allotment, and he and I shared. 3) I got to know the owner of the only decent liquor store in Lawton and had a wholesale arrangement with him to get him otherwise unavailable California wine.

cmaldoon wrote:I am very glad to live in California where laws on wine are quite lenient. A typical date with SWMBO begins with selecting a bottle from the cellar and then heading out to one of many local restaurants that allow corkage. I do not mind paying up to $20 for corkage to reimburse the restaurant for the standard markup they are missing. I'll do this at $12/ plate restaurants and $30/ plate places. I have had much more success bringing wines than taking my chance on a mediocre wine list.

I have had no problem here in Buffalo persuading any local restaurant to open a wine I've brought in, as long as I've made it clear that I expect to pay a corkage fee. The only problem I have with the plan you describe here, which I have used myself, is that once I get to the restaurant, the meal that strikes our fancy on that particular occasion may not be well suited for the wine I've already selected, and may have my heart set on.

tytiger58 wrote:How the hell do you live in a commie state like that?

Eh, it's not so bad, I usually stick to beer or liquor at dinner. It's actually all of the Lions fans that make me really want to move back to Chicago.

Depends on the restaurant. Generally we won't bring our own wine into a restaurant that we haven't been to before, and we also would never bring in a bottle that is already on the wine list, nor bring in an inexpensive 'grocery store' wine.

If a restaurant has a decent wine list with reasonable-enough prices, we'll generally order off of it, unless its prices/markups are just astronomical. If we bring a bottle to a place with a decent wine list, it will be a 'special occasion' bottle, and we'll usually order an additional bottle of wine from their wine list and offer a glass of whatever we brought to the restaurant staff.

A few restaurants near us have good food but a sub-par wine list, and we generally bring a bottle of our own wine to those without any compunction. And we will often take advantage of the 'no-corkage nights' that restaurants around us offer as well.


We have recently started frequenting a Italian restaurant called "Cucina Enoteca" (there is a similar restaurant owned by the same group down in San Diego) that also sells wines retail, and charges their retail price plus $8 to have one of their wines with dinner. Their retail prices aren't great (probably around 15% higher than you'd find at a Total Wine or BevMo), but they have a nice selection and it seems to be a fair way of having a standard per-bottle mark-up.

StarM wrote:So how much do you tip on a $100 bottle of wine ($40+ retail, $35 Costco or winery) that you buy at the restaurant? Or if you bring it in (assume same price point, but not readily available juice) with $20 corkage? Different tip
If there isn't a sommelier in either circumstance?

Thanks!

I generally stick at 20% (+/- depending on service), but I very, very rarely order a bottle over $100 when we go out (and generally we stick to around $30-50 if we're getting a bottle).

There does seem to be a problem with tipping fixed percentage of price when we're talking about expensive bottles of wine, as the service you get ordering a $50 bottle should be the same as you get ordering a $500 bottle, and I'm not sure why the tip for one would be $10 and the other $100.

ddeuddeg wrote:I have had no problem here in Buffalo persuading any local restaurant to open a wine I've brought in, as long as I've made it clear that I expect to pay a corkage fee. The only problem I have with the plan you describe here, which I have used myself, is that once I get to the restaurant, the meal that strikes our fancy on that particular occasion may not be well suited for the wine I've already selected, and may have my heart set on.

This is also my main issue when considering bringing vs ordering. Usually I will bring 2-3 bottles with me in case we decide to go with something unexpected. By the time I've decided to bring wine with me, though, I also have gone through the wine list online and decided if it provided decent value. Restaurants in SF have wildly differing ideas on fair markup for wine. The per glass lists are also all over the map in terms of value.

I'd add another point: I never bring a bottle of wine to a restaurant without calling and clearing it first.

It's common courtesy, especially if their wine list is not online, to confirm they don't have the wine, and to explain why you'd like to bring your own bottle. When it's been an old family wine, they invariably waive corkage and, as the owner of Cafe des Artistes (now sadly closed) put it, feel honored you think their food would enhance a 25 year old bottle of serious Cabernet.

Most restaurants are happy to accommodate anyone they think is serious about the food and drink.

Great discussion & information one & all!

Reminds me of why I love wine ... and food .... and wine!

Maybe in addition to FreeTheGrapes.com, we need a FreeThe Corks.com movement!

Cheers to all! Hope everyone is able to enjoy a long weekend!

If it is a BYOB place, I will BMOB!

jawlz wrote:
We have recently started frequenting a Italian restaurant called "Cucina Enoteca" (there is a similar restaurant owned by the same group down in San Diego) that also sells wines retail, and charges their retail price plus $8 to have one of their wines with dinner. Their retail prices aren't great (probably around 15% higher than you'd find at a Total Wine or BevMo), but they have a nice selection and it seems to be a fair way of having a standard per-bottle mark-up.

Residing near San Diego this caught my eye.
How is the food?

I've run into establishments that refuse to offer corkage and claim it's illegal, and others a few blocks away that charge no corkage at all. Pretty easy choice for me.

If in Los Angeles Cafe Bizou in Santa Monica and Sherman Oaks $2 corkage all day every day and the food is great!

http://cafebizou.com/

rjquillin wrote:Residing near San Diego this caught my eye.
How is the food?

It's quite good; we haven't had a dish we didn't like yet. The one in San Diego is Cucina Urbana; we've eaten there before once (a little over a year ago) and it was good as well.

rpm wrote:Restaurants with 'no corkage' policies and bad (meaning variously, overpriced, poor quality, or both) wine lists are shooting themselves in the foot IMHO.

With a little effort, they can find more interesting wines which are not any more expensive than the 'usual suspects', but good.

Even standard lists which have only OK wine, are better bets if the pricing is fair, because people will drink more if they think they're not being gouged.

I'm finding this to be a very interesting discussion! I think one aspect that has been left out so far is one's budget for eating out. At this point in my life with 4 kids at home, I won't have the luxury of ever ordering a $100 wine at a restaurant. The truth is that fine wine is still very much a luxury hobby, and takes some significant $$. I try to compensate for that by purchasing from woot, wtso, whatever, to try to buy good quality wine in a higher price point that I would normally afford.

That leaves me in a quandry if I want to go out or a decent meal, I could bring a woot wine that I paid $25 for that might retail at $50, and would be close to $100 on the wine list if they had it (doubtful) so I lean towards bringing my own bottle.

Another issue is that at least here in Rochester, many of the better restaurants will still bring you a red wine, even at a higher price level that's 75 degrees, or often even warmer. Ordering by the glass is complete waste of time, as drinking warm mediocre red wine is not high on my list of things I like to do.

There are exceptions, though- I ate in a wonderful wood fired pizza place in Pittsburgh, and the wine list, all by the glass, was clearly well thought out and imaginative. The owner/chef had been a finalist for a food and wine chef of the year and clearly knew her stuff. The open wine bottles were even sitting in a shallow ice bath to keep their temp down, and the wines by the glass I ordered were both very interesting, good values, and served at the proper temp. Unfortunately, this experience is harder to find than it should be.

wnance wrote:I'm finding this to be a very interesting discussion! I think one aspect that has been left out so far is one's budget for eating out. At this point in my life with 4 kids at home, I won't have the luxury of ever ordering a $100 wine at a restaurant. The truth is that fine wine is still very much a luxury hobby, and takes some significant $$. I try to compensate for that by purchasing from woot, wtso, whatever, to try to buy good quality wine in a higher price point that I would normally afford.

That leaves me in a quandry if I want to go out or a decent meal, I could bring a woot wine that I paid $25 for that might retail at $50, and would be close to $100 on the wine list if they had it (doubtful) so I lean towards bringing my own bottle.

Another issue is that at least here in Rochester, many of the better restaurants will still bring you a red wine, even at a higher price level that's 75 degrees, or often even warmer. Ordering by the glass is complete waste of time, as drinking warm mediocre red wine is not high on my list of things I like to do.

There are exceptions, though- I ate in a wonderful wood fired pizza place in Pittsburgh, and the wine list, all by the glass, was clearly well thought out and imaginative. The owner/chef had been a finalist for a food and wine chef of the year and clearly knew her stuff. The open wine bottles were even sitting in a shallow ice bath to keep their temp down, and the wines by the glass I ordered were both very interesting, good values, and served at the proper temp. Unfortunately, this experience is harder to find than it should be.

What is the name of the place, and where at in Pittsburgh? I travel there at least once or twice a year on business and sometimes more to visit friends. Sounds like a good place to go.

North316 wrote:What is the name of the place, and where at in Pittsburgh? I travel there at least once or twice a year on business and sometimes more to visit friends. Sounds like a good place to go.

The name of the restaurant is Dinette. Website is http://dinette-pgh.com/ (paste into your browser) address is 5996 Penn Circle South up on the second level of Eastside.

One of the large state run wine stores is right around the corner. Look for governer's selections, or some similar label, basically special negotiated deals. They had 06 Wellington zin for $10, and I bought a fantastic Volker Eiselle Cab for $20, normally more than $40...