I found this entire thread incredibly interesting and educational. I am nowhere even close to purchasing this type of wine at auctions, but it was still a great read. And it is currently unfolding.

Grab some popcorn and watch it happen, if you're into such things.

kylemittskus wrote:I found this entire thread incredibly interesting and educational. I am nowhere even close to purchasing this type of wine at auctions, but it was still a great read. And it is currently unfolding.

Grab some popcorn and watch it happen, if you're into such things.

This stuff is fascinating to me. No way I would buy at auction given all that I've read. Not sure I would trust anyone...

kylemittskus wrote:I found this entire thread incredibly interesting and educational. I am nowhere even close to purchasing this type of wine at auctions, but it was still a great read. And it is currently unfolding.

Grab some popcorn and watch it happen, if you're into such things.

Well, I just finished the entire thread. Quite interesting to say the least. Thanks for posting!!

kylemittskus wrote:I found this entire thread incredibly interesting and educational. I am nowhere even close to purchasing this type of wine at auctions, but it was still a great read. And it is currently unfolding.

Grab some popcorn and watch it happen, if you're into such things.

I tried it with a Hartenberg Pinotage. not by half as good as what I was reading about, but interesting enough to get over one's prejudices!

Great thread, thx

I had a half an hour to kill at work before heading home tonight when I ran across this thread... Three hours later, the wife was on the phone ready to send out a search party. Very interesting/entertaining. Thanks!

mbmiche wrote:I had a half an hour to kill at work before heading home tonight when I ran across this thread... Three hours later, the wife was on the phone ready to send out a search party. Very interesting/entertaining. Thanks!

Yeah, I kept an eye on it for 2 days while it was unfolding. Very compelling reading. Thanks to Kyle for posting the link!

Imagine if Don Cornwell had realized sooner that there were high-res pics available for viewing, he probably would have identified twice as many fakes. They might have had to consider obliging his demand to cancel the auction altogether. Despite his efforts to be proactive, there were undoubtedly sill a lot of fraudulent bottles/lots sold.

Probably the most egregious one that wasn't pulled was the '45 Romanee Conti (lot 133) seen here.

Don primarily concentrates on the differences in the 4 in 1945 but seems to have overlooked some other obvious differences between the labels. There is a gap between some of the letters, parts of letters and punctuation marks on one label, whereas these elements tend to meet or flow together in the other.

Example 1: The dot on the first i in Villaine. There's a clear gap between the dot and the overhanging part of the V on the top label but on the bottom label, the dot actually touches the V.

Example 2: See how the top of the P in Petits seems to curl into itself on the right-hand side, or nearly so, on the top label but there is a distinct gap between those two elements on the bottom label.

Example 3: Where it says Fils de J.M. - on the top label there is a gap between the de and J but on the bottom label, they run together.

chipgreen wrote:Yeah, I kept an eye on it for 2 days while it was unfolding. Very compelling reading. Thanks to Kyle for posting the link!

Imagine if Don Cornwell had realized sooner that there were high-res pics available for viewing, he probably would have identified twice as many fakes. They might have had to consider obliging his demand to cancel the auction altogether. Despite his efforts to be proactive, there were undoubtedly sill a lot of fraudulent bottles/lots sold.

Probably the most egregious one that wasn't pulled was the '45 Romanee Conti (lot 133) seen here.

Don primarily concentrates on the differences in the 4 in 1945 but seems to have overlooked some other obvious differences between the labels. There is a gap between some of the letters, parts of letters and punctuation marks on one label, whereas these elements tend to meet or flow together in the other.

Example 1: The dot on the first i in Villaine. There's a clear gap between the dot and the overhanging part of the V on the top label but on the bottom label, the dot actually touches the V.

Example 2: See how the top of the P in Petits seems to curl into itself on the right-hand side, or nearly so, on the top label but there is a distinct gap between those two elements on the bottom label.

Example 3: Where it says Fils de J.M. - on the top label there is a gap between the de and J but on the bottom label, they run together.

Do you know Don? I frequent the berserker boards now and then, and there are a lot of diverse and experienced people over there (and a lot of hot air, like everywhere), but the real names help a lot! Great expertise and experience I see!

I as tempted to cycle down to the auction and see what happened, but only noticed it the day before, which wasn't enough notice.

So that's where Clayfu went. I guess wine.woot! wasn't high end enough for him.

richardhod wrote:Do you know Don? I frequent the berserker boards now and then, and there are a lot of diverse and experienced people over there (and a lot of hot air, like everywhere), but the real names help a lot! Great expertise and experience I see!

I as tempted to cycle down to the auction and see what happened, but only noticed it the day before, which wasn't enough notice.

No, I only recently heard of the WB boards from reading some of the forums on CT. I had never visited until Kyle posted the link in this thread.

In fact, even though I've been buying wines on woot for a few years, I just clicked on worldofwine.woot for the first time a little over a month ago. Now I realize why the actual product discussions seem so dead sometimes - everyone's in here!

Wish I would have started exploring a little sooner so I could have gotten a place on the rpm tour as it seems I can't even get my name on the waiting list at this point. Hopefully that will change as things start to shake out.

EDIT: I am also at fault for not getting to know everyone better over the last few years because I have a handful of woot accounts that I've switched back and forth between.

In fact, I forgot that I was logged in as harmonious1 yesterday when I posted the info about the winery prices and scores for the Core wines and then quoted that post as chipgreen later, lol. For a long time I was mostly using my dawgdave99 handle. Now that I'm finally getting to know some of you I will try to stick with chipgreen as long as I don't slip up like yesterday!

chipgreen wrote:No, I only recently heard of the WB boards from reading some of the forums on CT. I had never visited until Kyle posted the link in this thread.

In fact, even though I've been buying wines on woot for a few years, I just clicked on worldofwine.woot for the first time a little over a month ago. Now I realize why the actual product discussions seem so dead sometimes - everyone's in here!

Wish I would have started exploring a little sooner so I could have gotten a place on the rpm tour as it seems I can't even get my name on the waiting list at this point. Hopefully that will change as things start to shake out.

EDIT: I am also at fault for not getting to know everyone better over the last few years because I have a handful of woot accounts that I've switched back and forth between.

In fact, I forgot that I was logged in as harmonious1 yesterday when I posted the info about the winery prices and scores for the Core wines and then quoted that post as chipgreen later, lol. For a long time I was mostly using my dawgdave99 handle. Now that I'm finally getting to know some of you I will try to stick with chipgreen as long as I don't slip up like yesterday!

heh heh, how did you slip up?

richardhod wrote:heh heh, how did you slip up?

By posting as harmonious1 without realizing it. I have different payment methods associated with each woot account so I will sometimes use the other accounts to make or review purchases and then forget that I'm logged in under a different name.

Just a note that there are some interesting posts on WB in the aftermath of the auction as well. I'm still following the thread...

This post bothers me quite a bit. It seems as if this guy is ITB, and actually may run or own an action house (?), and his attitude towards the entire issue is rather cavalier. "Don't be so negative. Wine is for fun. Blah blah blah." I will likely never play in this world, but nevertheless, I enjoy learning about it. And when someone who is, at the very least, really in the world from the business end tells everyone not to worry about it....

I also hate when people do mic drops like that. "I will likely never post here again..." F you!

chipgreen wrote:By posting as harmonious1 without realizing it. I have different payment methods associated with each woot account so I will sometimes use the other accounts to make or review purchases and then forget that I'm logged in under a different name.

I do that all the time. I either add another post under my own name or leave it and confuse people :D

kylemittskus wrote:This post bothers me quite a bit. It seems as if this guy is ITB, and actually may run or own an action house (?), and his attitude towards the entire issue is rather cavalier. "Don't be so negative. Wine is for fun. Blah blah blah." I will likely never play in this world, but nevertheless, I enjoy learning about it. And when someone who is, at the very least, really in the world from the business end tells everyone not to worry about it....

I also hate when people do mic drops like that. "I will likely never post here again..." F you!

Yeah, that was that Rob Rosania guy who used to run with Rudy. His name was dragged into the thread earlier along with every other known acquaintance. While his sentiments about sharing wine are nice, I agree that he has a cavalier attitude about the whole thing.

It amazes me that there are no real enforceable regulations to prevent the fraudulent sale of collectible wines, especially given the dollar figures that are involved and the fact that those who have that kind of cash to throw around are usually pretty influential when it comes to politics. These bogus bottles just keep circulating! You'd think that someone would have the authority to confiscate and destroy such items.

I know the FBI gets involved with forged sports memorabilia. I'm surprised they don't do the same with wine.

thanks for the link Kyle - definitely an interesting read. I never realized the extent of fraudulent wine out there, but his is a real eye-opener. Luckily, it hasn't (and shouldn't) infiltrate the dollar point in which most of us play, but it's still very interesting none the less.

Whoooooaaaaaaa.

1) Fascinating time suck; hours of life I'll never have back.

2) By page 3 I felt like someone who had accidentally stumbled into the private high-rollers lounge wearing a dirty gap sweatshirt and frayed 70's style jeans. Talk about feeling out of place!


Thanks for the link - the whole site is pretty cool - didn't know about it until I saw this!

An update, Rudy Kurniawan, the source of some of these disputed bottles, was arrested today on counts of mail and wire fraud for selling counterfeit wines.

andyduncan wrote:An update, Rudy Kurniawan, the source of some of these disputed bottles, was arrested today on counts of mail and wire fraud for selling counterfeit wines.

Just came to post this. So glad that something has been done. Enough? Very likely not. But something, nevertheless.

kylemittskus wrote:Just came to post this. So glad that something has been done. Enough? Very likely not. But something, nevertheless.

The pictures they released as evidence are pretty incredible, not to mention damning.

More on this story from today's NYT.

InFrom wrote:More on this story from today's NYT.

A recent article from New York Magazine.