themostrighteous wrote:noceto = NICE - fo' sho'!

question for the winemaker / winery: can you please comment on the difference in the aging process between using puncheons only (2005 Reserve) v. a combination of puncheons & barrels (2006 Sangio)? just curious.

We like puncheons because of the Oak/wine ratio we do not rely heavily on Oak we like to showcase the fruit of the wine. With the Riserva we have a set amount of cases that we produce during blending, we then can match the amount of gallons to age it in Puncheons only. With the Normalla being a higher case production blend we have to use some barrels to supplement the # of puncheons.

platypusrex wrote:Fool.

And we were doing so well not insulting each other over such things as New vs. Old World, high ABV vs. low ABV and . . . . not ordering because Woot is not your only source of wine?

Yeah.

fairnymph wrote:You need to get up on CT, btw.

I made an account, but I was far too lazy to populate it, so I forgot about it instead. :P

yumitori wrote:Thanks for joining us, Rusty.

The question was raised earlier... What would you say the drinking window is for these two wines?

Each vintage has a different aging potential. Last night we had a winemakers dinner at Taste Restaurant in Plymouth. One of the pairings was a 1995 Sangiovese and a 2006 Sangiovese which is the wine offered hereon Woot. The 2006 in comparison with the 1995 wine was an obviously younger wine that we hope will age as gracefully as the 1995 wine which was a crowd favorite. Hope this answers your question.

RustyF wrote:Each vintage has a different aging potential. Last night we had a winemakers dinner at Taste Restaurant in Plymouth. One of the pairings was a 1995 Sangiovese and a 2006 Sangiovese which is the wine offered hereon Woot. The 2006 in comparison with the 1995 wine was an obviously younger wine that we hope will age as gracefully as the 1995 wine which was a crowd favorite. Hope this answers your question.

I'm sorry to be blunt Rusty, but it actually doesn't. How long can we hold these wines before they become bland, boring, lose their zing, etc. Should we hold them or should we drink them now? We understand that you can't guarantee any of these answers, but we like guessed, professional opinions, etc.

kylemittskus wrote:I'm sorry to be blunt Rusty, but it actually doesn't. How long can we hold these wines before they become bland, boring, lose their zing, etc. Should we hold them or should we drink them now? We understand that you can't guarantee any of these answers, but we like guessed, professional opinions, etc.

If I am to infer what he said, you got an example of 14 years being delightful, but each vintage holds it's own unknown potential, unless you can read the future? Heh heh...

RustyF wrote:Each vintage has a different aging potential. Last night we had a winemakers dinner at Taste Restaurant in Plymouth. One of the pairings was a 1995 Sangiovese and a 2006 Sangiovese which is the wine offered hereon Woot. The 2006 in comparison with the 1995 wine was an obviously younger wine that we hope will age as gracefully as the 1995 wine which was a crowd favorite. Hope this answers your question.

Follow-up, what was the alc% of the '95? Have you tried to maintain a consistency in the past decade+?

minnemike wrote:If I am to infer what he said, you got an example of 14 years being delightful, but each vintage holds it's own unknown potential, unless you can read the future? Heh heh...

Most of the time, the wine-maker or rep. will say, we recommend drinking it within the next 2 years or do not touch for 20 years, etc.

I know that each vintage holds its own potential, but based on tannin and acid structure, an estimation can usually be made.

Alaska1 wrote:You said the magic word. ZINFANDEL!

IIRC, I had the OGP zin from their first offering, and it was delicious. I guess there are a few non fruit-bomb zins out there worth drinking.

Likely in for multiples of these as virtually everyone (including me) thinks highly of Noceto.

I note that the winery will be releasing 6 additional Sangioveses in a little more than a month. They also look delicious! http://noceto.com/

And, hey Noceto, when ya gonna team with Woot to bring us some OGP Zinfandel as you have in the past?

canonizer wrote:Follow-up, what was the alc% of the '95? Have you tried to maintain a consistency in the past decade+?

the 95 is at 14.5%alc. we have been pretty consisntant over the years with the Alcohol levals in our Sangiovese ranging from 13.7% to 14.5%.depending on what mother nature deals us during the growing season.

The fiancee loves Sangio, I like it a lot... easy decision from such a respected producer around here. In for 2.

When will the Reseling Wine be available again? :D

Woo Hoo! First Woot of 2009! I've done so well with my fiscal austerity program, but the Noceto will cause my deficit to rise!

I'm ghetto labratting the Sanjo (the normale, not the two riservas); I have a case of 2006 Sangiovese as a member of Noceto's Nut club and decided to pop a bottle tonight.

Lots of black cherry and strawberry up front. Follows up with earth tones. Finish is good. The 2006 is not quite as rich as the 2003, but the flavor profile is the same. If you have had any of the previous vintages, you'll find this very similar. The acidity in this wine is right on the money, so it has been my go-to guy for dinner (especially weeknights). I haven't tasted any Noceto wines more than 4 years old, but I wouldn't hold this wine more than 3-4 years.

Noceto's sangiovese are very much in the traditional Tuscan style, and I love it. If you like charming, Italian wine, this is a no-brainer.

...and I second the motion to bring back OGP to w.w. I'll buy 3 and gift 3.

Wish I'd held off on the sake. This winery was excellent the first time around.

RustyF wrote:We like puncheons because of the Oak/wine ratio we do not rely heavily on Oak we like to showcase the fruit of the wine. With the Riserva we have a set amount of cases that we produce during blending, we then can match the amount of gallons to age it in Puncheons only. With the Normalla being a higher case production blend we have to use some barrels to supplement the # of puncheons.

thank you kindly.

I just got back. I was at the winemakers dinner at Taste last night and was at the winery for over 3 hours with Kevin and Rusty and the Noceto gang. Some random tidbits- I'm tired and will write more tomorrow.

2005 was a bumper crop around the Sierra Foothills. The wines from 05 are softer and I think more readily drinkable. The 2006 Riservas and other higher end wines were just released, so I am sure Noceto is letting some of the cats and dogs so to speak of 2005 stuff out to make room for the upcoming bottlings of 2007 that will start for the Normale to ship this fall. The Riserva is just an elegant wine from year to year. I guess super Tuscan is the right comparison. When you get over to Dos Oakies, Marmellata and even the Hillside blocks of Sangios that they make they then become more brunello-like because they are the clones of sangio used for the nobile brunello di montalcinos and such. Brunellos in Italy undergo about 2-3 years aging while Noceto is probably closer to 18 months on oak, but as Rusty noted not over oaked- they want the wine to speak for itself so there is very little new oak and they watch closely for signs of oakiness and prevent their offerings from tasting like matchsticks. So you will find the riservas to be softer and more elegant.

On to Normale 2006. Bottleshock is real. I don't know how but it us. The sangios are a softer wine like pinot and for some reason they are better about 2 weeks after I get them from UPS. I have no idea how many Nocetos I've been through in the years before cellar tracker, but suffice it to say it has been a lot. I used to crack one the day they got there and they are very scared young little puppies when you open them. After about 2 weeks they settle down but even then they are not really ready to drink in my estimation. The 2005 nomale was just a hint softer and it maybe did mature a little faster but the 2006 is really only hitting stride now. I had some at the winery and at dinner last night and it was great. 2006 is a year where the wines are spicy and have a lot of nice flavors that will probably make them better than the 04's. I loved the 03's, the 04's were better, the 05's were softer and now the 06's are showing signs to be better than the other years' I have amassed. I really like the 06 Normale a lot.

I tried the rest of the line of 06's yesterday for the first time (I got my Big Nut and Jumbo pack last Friday, so I have not opened any. I was very impressed. The 05's are very very good and the 06's are even better! As I said we travelled home ot Illinois to day so I am burned out and need some rest. I will report more on the dinner and winery visits but suffice it to say the offering of 2 of the 05 Riserva and 1 Normale from 06 for the Woot price is a great buy. These are serious wines. They will last for at least 5 years, maybe longer bceasue we had the 1995 Normale last night and iwas all over that wine! What a beauty! It was mostly from the Dos Oakies block back then. I had an 03' Normale a while back and many 04's from my cellar and they are still drinking quite well. I am keeping a set of 4 normales from each year for posterity. I got some 1995 Normale at the dinner last night and am looking forward to seeing how long they will last.

To be really proper, in Italian it is No-Che-Toe. Che as in Che Guevarra ("chay", I guess) but as Americanized English speakers it is ok to say No-Chet-o, which mean walnut grove. That is what Jim and Suzy Gullett had ripped out to plant they vineyards around 1985 and beyond.

I had a glorious time at both Taste and at the winery yesterday. The folks at the restaurant did an outstanding job, as did the winery owners, family and staff. Kevin, who I guess is appropraitely called the Cellar Master, spent a lot of time with us exploring the blocks of grapevines and tasting the barrels to see what was happened in the 07 and 08 upcoming offering years. One of our party of 8 fell ill and did not come to Amador with us, so Kevin joined us at our table for the dinner last night and when he was not mixing it up with the crowd (75 people attended- a sellout with a huge waiting list) he was educating us and yucking it up with my wife, her brother and sister and their spouses and my best friend Mark and I.

I don't get a dime from this endorsement. This is truly my favorite winery and others should enjoy this great wine, too. They are the best sangio makers in the US. If pinot noir is too expensive for your wallet, sangiovese can be a great replacement for it. And even if you can afford pinot, this is another great noble grape that should grace your tables and cellars. Bright cherries and ripe earth are the main flavor and nose components. There are many nuances and I will elaborate but I am off to bed now! Drink 'em young, drink 'em old, but drink 'em! Noceto is a great winery.

subinsignia wrote:I just got back. I was at the winemakers dinner at Taste last night and was at the winery for over 3 hours with Kevin and Rusty and the Noceto gang. Some random tidbits

Bitchin'!!! Thanks!

Edit: I have very high hopes for this wine. Can't wait to try it.

javadrinker wrote:I believe this is the winery that Subsignia is especially high on. I haven't been in on any of the previous offerings but I think I might have to be in on this one. Can't wait for some lab rat feedback.

Hi! This is Suzy,owner of Vino Noceto. You've got the right winery. I finally got to meet Subinsgignia last night at our winemaker dinner at our fabulous local restaurant.

was in for 2 the last offereing.. The Noceto offering is what got me to buy over and over again from Woot... In for 2 more this time..
Is it possible to labrat this? just once? ^^

SuzyGullett wrote:Hi! This is Suzy,owner of Vino Noceto. You've got the right winery. I finally got to meet Subinsgignia last night at our winemaker dinner at our fabulous local restaurant.

Hello, glad you made it. Interesting we are getting on at the same time.
Jim, Suzy's husband and co-owner of Vino Noceto

smartheart wrote:Likely in for multiples of these as virtually everyone (including me) thinks highly of Noceto.

I note that the winery will be releasing 6 additional Sangioveses in a little more than a month. They also look delicious! http://noceto.com/

And, hey Noceto, when ya gonna team with Woot to bring us some OGP Zinfandel as you have in the past?

Hello,
Of our 10k cases of production, 7k are sangiovese wines. Some are 100-200 cases, representing a specific "clone" and/or vineyard location.
We sold out of the previous OGP vintage late last year. April is the official release for the 2006, so we have a while for it to be a candidate!
Jim

kylemittskus wrote:I'm sorry to be blunt Rusty, but it actually doesn't. How long can we hold these wines before they become bland, boring, lose their zing, etc. Should we hold them or should we drink them now? We understand that you can't guarantee any of these answers, but we like guessed, professional opinions, etc.

Predicting the longevity of California wine has been a very speculative endeavor. But, I'll give it my view. I believe balance with sufficient fruit and acid make our wines last. The 2006 Noceto Sangiovese hits our target very well. It should continue to mature for at least another 2-3 years and hold for several more. I think it has the potential for even a longer progression before falling apart. Whether it's actually better depends on whether you prefer more fruit flavors -- berries, sour plums or cherries, etc. -- versus more mature Sangiovese/Chianti flavors such as dry leaves, leather or cedar, etc. The 2005 Riserva could be more controversial in aging potential. Rusty and I probably disagree, but I think the 2006 Noceto is more likely to be a really interesting wine in a decade than the 2005 Riserva. But, that's because fruitiness, or its vestiges, are my preference in most wine.
Hope that helps a little.
Jim

otolith wrote:IIRC, I had the OGP zin from their first offering, and it was delicious. I guess there are a few non fruit-bomb zins out there worth drinking.

I am glad you gave it a chance!

themostrighteous wrote:noceto = NICE - fo' sho'!

question for the winemaker / winery: can you please comment on the difference in the aging process between using puncheons only (2005 Reserve) v. a combination of puncheons & barrels (2006 Sangio)? just curious.

To add a little to the puncheon (500 l or 130 gallon) versus barrel (225 l or 60 gallon) discussion, the wine ages somewhat slower in the larger puncheons. Because of the bigger ratio of wine volume to (barrel) surface area with the larger vessel, oxidation is slower. Then, fruitiness tends to be preserved, one of our targets.
Jim

JimofNoceto wrote:Predicting the longevity of California wine has been a very speculative endeavor. But, I'll give it my view. I believe balance with sufficient fruit and acid make our wines last. The 2006 Noceto Sangiovese hits our target very well. It should continue to mature for at least another 2-3 years and hold for several more. I think it has the potential for even a longer progression before falling apart. Whether it's actually better depends on whether you prefer more fruit flavors -- berries, sour plums or cherries, etc. -- versus more mature Sangiovese/Chianti flavors such as dry leaves, leather or cedar, etc. The 2005 Riserva could be more controversial in aging potential. Rusty and I probably disagree, but I think the 2006 Noceto is more likely to be a really interesting wine in a decade than the 2005 Riserva. But, that's because fruitiness, or its vestiges, are my preference in most wine.
Hope that helps a little.
Jim

The discussion about liking aged wine has been going on here for a while. I greatly appreciate your feedback, and as I said, I am very very excited to try these wines. It is rare that a wine is unanimously loved by this capricious community.

Cheers!!!

JimofNoceto wrote:To add a little to the puncheon (500 l or 130 gallon) versus barrel (225 l or 60 gallon) discussion, the wine ages somewhat slower in the larger puncheons. Because of the bigger ratio of wine volume to (barrel) surface area with the larger vessel, oxidation is slower. Then, fruitiness tends to be preserved, one of our targets.
Jim

New question: How common is this practice in other CA wineries? What about in Italy? If you know, of course.

kylemittskus wrote:New question: How common is this practice in other CA wineries? What about in Italy? If you know, of course.

Perhaps more than you want to know, but we started this with a research trip to Tuscany in 1985 (with 2 and 4 year old boys). We visited a number of Chianti and Brunello producers: Isola e Olena, Antinori, Castello dei Rampolla, Argiano, and others. We learned many used large format cooperage for aging their Sangiovese wines. Some were beginning to use smaller, 225 liter barrels, often new oak. We found we usually preferred the fruit and lower oakiness of those aged in larger cooperage. Thus, we typically use puncheons with Sangiovese. New 225 liter barrels typically get "broken in" with OGP Zinfandel or Linsteadt Barbera. After a couple vintages, the used barrels find their way into the Sangiovese program. We usually get about 10 vintages from a barrel or puncheon before it becomes a planter or oak chips for the BBQ!
Jim

JimofNoceto wrote: snip... awesome answer... snip

VERY excited for this wine.

kylemittskus wrote:New question: How common is this practice in other CA wineries? What about in Italy? If you know, of course.

And to your question, Italians are all over the map with their cooperage use, but probably more toward 225 liter barrels. Not many American wineries use puncheons. The larger size is harder to handle and costs more up front. Also, implicit from my prior comment, if you are trying to get lots of oak flavor in your wine, rather than an accent, you'll probably want barrels and replace them by the third or fourth year of use.
Jim

JimofNoceto wrote:Perhaps more than you want to know, but we started this with a research trip to Tuscany in 1985 (with 2 and 4 year old boys). We visited a number of Chianti and Brunello producers: Isola e Olena, Antinori, Castello dei Rampolla, Argiano, and others. We learned many used large format cooperage for aging their Sangiovese wines. Some were beginning to use smaller, 225 liter barrels, often new oak. We found we usually preferred the fruit and lower oakiness of those aged in larger cooperage. Thus, we typically use puncheons with Sangiovese. New 225 liter barrels typically get "broken in" with OGP Zinfandel or Linsteadt Barbera. After a couple vintages, the used barrels find their way into the Sangiovese program. We usually get about 10 vintages from a barrel or puncheon before it becomes a planter or oak chips for the BBQ!
Jim

Do you find that the zin or barbera imparts any of their flavors or other characteristics to the sangio the first time you use the "broken in" barrels for the sangio? Or is it pretty much a non-issue?

kyle83uw wrote:Wow, I was just saying it had been too long since Noceto was on here in a recent thread- in for 3 w/out reservation. I'd *love* to labrat this one, but if not picked, I'm sure I can be talked in to opening my one Reserva from the previous offering and giving my opinion- only went in for 1 that time- loved them all but was saving the reserva. So happy to see them back on here.

*edit*
Just saw that the one I have is an 04, not the 05, so I guess it may not be too helpful

Well, I didn't get a labrat email, so I assume I'm not one of the lucky few- oh well, guess I'll have to crack my 04 Riserva =)

*preface*
I should let you know this is really my first attempt at explicitly describing the nose/taste- I've been drinking wine for 6+ years, but am admittedly terrible at picking out individual characteristics…so take this all w/ a huge grain of salt.

Waited about 15 mins after opening- here are my original thoughts-
Nose: darker fruit on the nose compared to regular sang, some "funk"/spice, fair amount of heat, maybe a bit of chocolate? (The funk I referred to was a certain smell that, for the life of me, I could not identify. Not the type of funk I’ve smelled in, for instance, a Wellington syrah, which I identify more as a barnyard type funk.)
Taste: much fuller mouth feel, dark cherries, great acidity. No noticeable heat- some tannins

This was w/out any food- the tannins and darker fruit compelled me to pair it with *something*. Considering it’s past midnight here on the west coast, I wasn’t up to preparing a full pasta dish, but I did have some smoked salmon…[side note here- anyone in the Seattle area owes it to themselves to stop by B&E meats in Burien/Des Moines…amazing steaks, and some of the best smoked salmon I’ve had]

With the salmon, the tannins disappeared, and the fruit really came forward- very pleasant.

I should also mention, now that the wine has been opened for 45 mins or so, the original bitterness from the tannins seem to have faded already, and the dark fruit is coming through more. Also, the heat from the nose is gone.

Overall impressions- *very* delicious, and very different than the regular sangiovese that they offered w/ it in the previous offering. It’s been a while since I’ve had their regular sang (which I loved, btw), but from what I remember, the regular was a much lighter, crisper wine- sour cherries coming thorugh- For what it’s worth, I’d consider the regular sangiovese to be much more similar to toothy than the riserva. This riserva is much more complex, darker fruit, fuller wine. Honestly, if I tasted it blind, I may not ID it as a sang. I think the riserva would pair better with food. I know w/ the regular sang, I drank it alone, so I did not give it a chance to be paired, so I could be wrong.

Again, this is the 04 version, which, according to cellartracker is 91% Sangiovese (Sangiovese Grosso & Sangiovese Piccolo), 6% Syrah, 3% Barbera, so it’s different than what’s in this offering. However, if they are at all similar, I’m sure the 05 will be just as amazing. Glad I went in for 3.

Wow, just during the time it took to write this up, the wine has continued to improve- at least to my pallet- incredibly smooth, delicious fruit…mmmm

I just realized! I was so good, I sat out for a whole week(a week, I tell you!) between offerings. And I have over a case of wine being delivered relatively soon. I definitely don't have a place to put it, at least until that rack is put together. That WD is both a trickster and owns my credit cards, but as well received as this was, I found it rather hard to pass up yesterday.

I'm now getting very excited to see the UPS man in the next week or so. Mandolina, then this! I'm doing some damage here! My wine-buying stimulus package(courtesy of the governments of the US of A and the State of Illinois tax system) will be gone before I know it!

I folded like a cheap lawn chair, in for two and i sure hope this is some good juice. oy!

Have a great weekend everyone and see you on monday!

thrawn1020 wrote:I just realized! I was so good, I sat out for a whole week(a week, I tell you!) between offerings. And I have over a case of wine being delivered relatively soon. I definitely don't have a place to put it, at least until that rack is put together. That WD is both a trickster and owns my credit cards, but as well received as this was, I found it rather hard to pass up yesterday.

I'm now getting very excited to see the UPS man in the next week or so. Mandolina, then this! I'm doing some damage here! My wine-buying stimulus package(courtesy of the governments of the US of A and the State of Illinois tax system) will be gone before I know it!

Ahahah just made me realize that my UPS guy is probably glad I didn't get the case. He's always relieved I'm home when he drops off wine because he hates carrying it up the two flights of stairs (was even more relieved when I was home on the second delivery attempt for a set of five ;)).

boaz38 wrote:I folded like a cheap lawn chair

HAH, love your analogy.

tommythecat78 wrote:Do you find that the zin or barbera imparts any of their flavors or other characteristics to the sangio the first time you use the "broken in" barrels for the sangio? Or is it pretty much a non-issue?

We have not noticed any flavors transferring over from wine to wine, we use hot water and high pressure to clean the barrels when we rack so there is not much of or not at all the previous wine left in the barrels.

subinsignia wrote:I just got back...

most decidedly the best volrat (voluntary labrat for the uninitiated :D) report ever.