themostrighteous wrote:making the rest of us tour-istas the proverbial chopped liver?!? :P

seriously, though, as far as educations go, the tour cost was a bottom-of-the-barrel bargain, yo.

tmr! don't be so sensitive.... here I give a nice shout out to woop & his frau and you go all over me. c'mon, ya know better, I lov'd all of youse!

houtx wrote:Was it that good or that bad?

just the "-4" put me in a /. frame of mind.

canonizer wrote:just the "-4" put me in a /. frame of mind.

Oh. I was just doing the math, as the post asked me to. :-) Not a comment on the value of anything.

rpm wrote:I think inexperienced wine drinkers are often well served to spend time with wines that we used to describe as "sound commercial wine" - that is to say well-made wines without pretense to greatness, but rigged to give the drinker the characteristic aromas and flavor of the grape with reasonable balance, a little tannin where appropriate, and to be good values for money.

rpm, wonderful information as always. When you say "sound commercial wine", do you have any current examples of some of the more common varietals? I would be very interested to taste say a zinfandel that you consider to be characteristic for that varietal. I love most zins, but they can be so different (which is great, too) that sometimes it tastes like they are a completely different varietal. The other night I had a zin that tasted like I was spooning jam into my mouth. I enjoy fruit-forward but this was just waay too much.

Thank you.

annsalisbury wrote:Or the winery bought their land during a real estate bubble. My husband decided to join the wine club of a Napa winery and while we enjoy the wines very much, they cost about $15 to $20 a bottle more than we think they should (based upon the price of competitors' wine of similar quality). Given the winery's opening date, I suspect that they paid big bucks for the land and now have to find a way to pay it back.

rpm wrote:There also the not insignificant problem of many, many relatively new and small wineries which represent some wealthy wine fancier's vision without the experience and knowledge to ensure the production of wine that is never less than commercially sound, and regularly more interesting. Some of these producers are pricing to their costs, some to their egos, and some just don't know what the h*ll they're doing.

This reminds me of a very good book by James Conaway titled The Far Side of Eden. It's significantly more in depth than this, but the general theme is rich folks rolling into town to buy vineyards, starting an ego driven enterprise, hiring the best consultants and managers they can find, then pricing their wine stratospherically.

From my POV, this is their problem, not mine. I'm not buying something that is horrifically overpriced because of their flawed business plan. What kind of business would purposely buy overpriced property where they must grow the only crop (Cab S) that is actually profitable given their initial investment when in some cases it may not even be best suited to the soil or sub-climate? Seems like a house of cards because there are no options other than to grow Cab, price high, then cross your fingers.

gcdyersb wrote:This reminds me of a very good book by James Conaway titled The Far Side of Eden. It's significantly more in depth than this, but the general theme is rich folks rolling into town to buy vineyards, starting an ego driven enterprise, hiring the best consultants and managers they can find, then pricing their wine stratospherically.

From my POV, this is their problem, not mine. I'm not buying something that is horrifically overpriced because of their flawed business plan. What kind of business would purposely buy overpriced property where they must grow the only crop (Cab S) that is actually profitable given their initial investment when in some cases it may not even be best suited to the soil or sub-climate? Seems like a house of cards because there are no options other than to grow Cab, price high, then cross your fingers.

It is your problem in that there used to be better and cheaper wine options available. Of course, there also used to be less options internationally (i'm still struggling to find Aussie and South American wines I like, but they're out there!).

mewalk707 wrote:rpm, wonderful information as always. When you say "sound commercial wine", do you have any current examples of some of the more common varietals? I would be very interested to taste say a zinfandel that you consider to be characteristic for that varietal. I love most zins, but they can be so different (which is great, too) that sometimes it tastes like they are a completely different varietal. The other night I had a zin that tasted like I was spooning jam into my mouth. I enjoy fruit-forward but this was just waay too much.

Thank you.

Well, for Zin, you can't go wrong as sound examples of the varietal with Pedroncelli or Dry Creek (Northern Sonoma County, the place that has made excellent Zin for 120 years and provided the backbone of most California good (non Cabernet) dry red table wine for much of that time), Wellington (plugging Peter, but his Zins are really very good) in Sonoma Valley, or either Frogs Leap or Clos du Val in Napa. Those are all wines that are at least two cuts above 'sound commercial wine' but would be my current baseline for good, sound, well-made, not overly jammy, North Coast Zin. In Sonoma, you will also find Ravenswood makes good Zin and so does Gundlach Bundschu (though they're trying to get away from it, it sometimes seems, it was long their best red). In the 'sound commercial wine category, I would probably try BV (Beaulieu Vineyards - make sure you get the Napa Zin, not Coastal), Sebastiani (not what it used to be, but probably fine) or the lower end Ravenswood zins. The used to be a fine but reasonable Robert Mondavi Napa Zin, but it's no more. Clos du Bois, maybe (but it's been chancy). Others would disagree on individual choices. I've left out Scott Harvey, whose Zins are very good, too.

canonizer wrote:It is your problem in that there used to be better and cheaper wine options available. Of course, there also used to be less options internationally (i'm still struggling to find Aussie and South American wines I like, but they're out there!).

Indeed. It's also your (his, and all of our) problem that increasingly, the large wineries are trying to move more to the high and low ends simultaneously, leaving fewer, and more expensive, (and less carefully made, alas) wines in the everyday middle category -- where a BV or Mondavi (to take the best known examples) used to thrive, but where those dollars mostly moved as a result of fashion (IMHO) to the boutiques whose wines were probably, on the whole, inferior, even if made with more devotion (or not, if the owner just hired a winemaker/consultant).

This is getting off-thread!

rpm wrote:...snip: RPM likes ravenswood...

kylemittskus wrote:

High end Ravenswood single vineyard Zins can be outstanding in their teens. Lower end (but not bottom end) Ravenswood (the 'Sonoma' or other 'County' wines, not the Vintners Blend) can be very solid. Vinter's Blend is probably the Ravenswood you're thinking of, it is dreck.

mstang1988 wrote:I have 4 sitting around in Austin, my GF wasn't a fan of it so it's going to be my cooking wine...

I wasn't a big fan of Toothy either. Kinda seemed watered down, but maybe I should have tried it another night than with a 'linebacker' cab and lasagne.

I am holding onto them for another year or so before I say they really weren't what I like...

rpm wrote:High end Ravenswood single vineyard Zins can be outstanding in their teens. Lower end (but not bottom end) Ravenswood (the 'Sonoma' or other 'County' wines, not the Vintners Blend) can be very solid. Vinter's Blend is probably the Ravenswood you're thinking of, it is dreck.

I've had some wonderful Ravenswood zin but trying to keep track of which is which gets complex, they have a LOT of different ones...

kimfrazier wrote:The driveway was actually named Lupine because of the Lupine flowers that grow wild on the hillside in the springtime. The Christian Brothers used to be our neighbors up here on Lupine Hill Rd. and they originally spread the wildflower seeds causing the hill to bloom with Lupines ever since! The flower is a bluish purple color, thus the blue label.

Cool! I've never seen a lupine flower. Must now Google them. Thanks!

Edit...I know them, just never knew the name!

Winedavid39 wrote:4 rats still yet to come out.

Lately, some rats have been slow. And a few no-shows. Sometimes some of us hold out 'till we see the reports... which sometimes saves us money.
Weather permitting(among other valid excuses) here's hoping to see some reports soon.
~regardless, gots 3 WW orders on the way~

Winedavid39 wrote:4 rats still yet to come out.

In other words ... back to your scheduled thread still in progress ...

woopdedoo wrote:In other words ... back to your scheduled thread still in progress ...

And in other words: rats, get your lives together!!!

Suggestions:
1) If you have your wine delivered to a storage place, remove yourself from the rat list.
2) If you can't do it this week, wait till after noon the next day, or if concerned about a sellout, post a message on the board not to be ratted.
3) If you purchased within the deadline, always be prepared. There is the possibility to rat so be ready to do so!

Winedavid39 wrote:4 rats still yet to come out.

That's why i'm loitering.

rpm, thanks for the zin recs.

rpm wrote:Indeed. It's also your (his, and all of our) problem that increasingly, the large wineries are trying to move more to the high and low ends simultaneously, leaving fewer, and more expensive, (and less carefully made, alas) wines in the everyday middle category -- where a BV or Mondavi (to take the best known examples) used to thrive, but where those dollars mostly moved as a result of fashion (IMHO) to the boutiques whose wines were probably, on the whole, inferior, even if made with more devotion (or not, if the owner just hired a winemaker/consultant).

This is getting off-thread!

Indeed, further to that point: Kendall Jackson has a very serviceable sub-label "Edmeades" which produces nice, robust zins. They are, like all else, very boozy. But certainly it falls into that 'sound commercial wine/jazz it up with a new label' venue.

ugh, I just plugged KJ.

rpm wrote:High end Ravenswood single vineyard Zins can be outstanding in their teens. Lower end (but not bottom end) Ravenswood (the 'Sonoma' or other 'County' wines, not the Vintners Blend) can be very solid. Vinter's Blend is probably the Ravenswood you're thinking of, it is dreck.

I believe you 100%. Avoid the vinter's blend. Maybe I'll hunt down a single vineyard and try it out. But what I really want is some greanche. Hint, hint Mr. WD.

kylemittskus wrote:I believe you 100%. Avoid the vinter's blend. Maybe I'll hunt down a single vineyard and try it out. But what I really want is some greanche. Hint, hint Mr. WD.

My recent favorite of the Ravenswood single vineyards is the Big River Zin. Hard to find, but super delicious and complex.

Winedavid39 wrote:4 rats still yet to come out.

My bottle of 2005 arrived this afternoon. I'll be opening it up tonight.

With the total lack of quality you can get in the Northern New England states without spending an arm and a leg....

And the cost of shipping from the Napa winery "wine clubs" makes the average drinking wines not such a good there either....

If this is anything like the Block 13 deal....

This would be a great drinking wine...

Not looking for the great stuff....

Just looking for the pop the cork any night of the week and relax bottle.....

In for 2....

The $15 bottles probably are worth the same at what is priced in the $35 to $45 range out here min!

The Woot shipping does it for me....

Just decent Cab is hard to find out here unless you are willing to get into that $50 range....

Which embrangles!

LABRAT REPORT 2005

As a reminder I had the previous offering. Thus, I can compare to the 2003.

Had reservations at a local establishment, thus happily paid the corking fee.

Immediately after uncorking, nice general fruit smell, excellent deep red color. Initial taste was a bit lacking. Similar to my notes for the 2003. However, the 2005 was a bit better - a stronger fruit/pepper entry. This wine is not a fruit bomb! The mid and finish are definitely on the pepper side. Mild tannins.

Wine paired well with the stuff mushroom appetizer.

Wife had walleye and I had lamb. Yes, not the best pairing for a cabernet, but this wine worked well for both. Over time the wine opened up. The entry increased in flavor, the tannins mellowed (in a good way), and the pepper taste became consistent throughout.

As with the 2003, this wine pairs extremely well with chocolate - I mean really well! They really compliment each other.

This wine compares well with Louis Martini - NAPA, Block 13 (best QPR!), and Franciscan Cabernet. It is closer in taste (pepper) to the Franciscan, but a bit milder pepper taste.

I still wouldn't pay $30-$35/bottle. However, at $15/bottle this is a very good value. I am glad I purchased.

If you drink this wine in the near future - decant for 60-90 minutes. This wine should age well for the next 1-2 years. The pepper taste will certainly pair well with red meat.

Rat Report "Part 1": 2004 Lupine Hill Cab! Uncorked 5:30 CST. First pour: Very dark ruby/claret in color. Alot of crystals on cork that look like a druzy quartz after about 15 minutes. Nose is very much alcohol and cherry. Legs are 7mm between and stay that way through out the next 2 hours. The alc is very powerful and behind it is great cherry and very slight oak. Tannins are low. (At this time I have to admit I love high alc wines as I have some really pretty lamp shades I look great in). Pour into decanter at 6:00 pm and it looks like welch's dark grape juice...really! It is some of the darkest I have ever seen in my 50++ years. She is a beauty!! Second tasting at 6:30: alcohol is still very forward and cherry is some what more subtle turning to raspberry and the oak is still slight. A bit of pepper showing.

LABRAT REPORT 2005 Question?

I loved the block 13, if you had to choose between the two which one would you pick?

Rat report "Part 2" 2004 Lupine Hill Cab! 7:00 PM: Much deeper complex flavors. Alcohol is not shouting anymore and has taken on some soft blueberry and raspberry...a bit dusty and still very slight oak. Oregano just showed up. This is a dry wine, but not "click your tongue" crazy dry. 8:00 PM: we just finished dinner that was laden with garlic and here she comes again with something new...chocolate!!! Showing up at the end. I would highly suggest decanting this at least an hour or two before consuming. It has now settled down and the wine is smoother and pleasant...Glad I was in for it and thanks for the rattage! We had more notes, but will stop at 2 pages.

nuggy wrote:With the total lack of quality you can get in the Northern New England states without spending an arm and a leg....

What parts are you in? I'm a Mainer resettled in Seacoast NH and I know there are a couple of nearby folks on the boards

MoveoverCinderella wrote:Rat report "Part 2" 2004 Lupine Hill Cab! 7:00 PM: Much deeper complex flavors. Alcohol is not shouting anymore and has taken on some soft blueberry and raspberry...a bit dusty and still very slight oak. Oregano just showed up. This is a dry wine, but not "click your tongue" crazy dry. 8:00 PM: we just finished dinner that was laden with garlic and here she comes again with something new...chocolate!!! Showing up at the end. I would highly suggest decanting this at least an hour or two before consuming. It has now settled down and the wine is smoother and pleasant...Glad I was in for it and thanks for the rattage! We had more notes, but will stop at 2 pages.

Great notes! It's typical of all of our wines (and of pretty much all Cabs from this Coombsville region) to take some time to open up. They can be a bit reserved initially so I'm glad to see the recommendations for decanting and glad to see that the consensus is that wine is opening up with some time in the glass. I highly suggest that for all of our wines, especially the Cabs, as they have many layers. Your patience will be rewarded!

rpm wrote:Ya think? It is frustrating for new wine drinkers to spend a pretty penny on wines because of their reputations, and find that they don't like them, or (as is often the case with wines made in more traditional styles) understand them. I'm sympathetic (if intolerant of 'trophy hunters' with more money than sense), but very often the last thing a new wine drinker wants to hear is the very sound advice to start with more modest wines and develop a palate over time, hopefully by tasting with people who are more knowledgeable and capable of teaching the neophyte how to identify aromas, flavors, acid, tannin, and other characteristics so that he or she can begin to organize their impressions of wine and discover their own palates in a systematic way. Being assured, at the same time you explain that they should drink what they like, that as they drink more, their palates will almost certainly change over time.

A former girlfriend of mine from the early 1970s was an "Annie Green Springs" and "Boone's Farm" drinker when we met. I changed her life with a 1964 BV de Latour Cabernet Sauvignon (an unusual year 1964, the entire crop was released as de Latour. a lovely wine at around 6 when it was released). She applied herself over the years, with me and subsequently, and has done semi-professional tasting at the international level and had an outstanding palate firmly grounded in pre-international style Cabernet, Bordeaux and Burgundy. It takes effort, and a good teacher helps, but the basic princples are summed up in my tag line.

I think inexperienced wine drinkers are often well served to spend time with wines that we used to describe as "sound commercial wine" - that is to say well-made wines without pretense to greatness, but rigged to give the drinker the characteristic aromas and flavor of the grape with reasonable balance, a little tannin where appropriate, and to be good values for money.

One of the hardest things to admit, especially for those of us who like small, interesting wineries -- which includes most of the wineries we see here on woot -- , is that some of the industrial wineries make some pretty good wines which sell at pretty good price points. Even the dreaded Gallo which has its hands on a number of old, famous wine labels such as Martini, Frei Brothers (which was known in the trade, along with Seghesio, as a producer of some of the very best bulk wine in California in the old days) and others, makes wines under those labels that are good, true to type, and instructive for not a lot of money, even if those wines are sad shadows of their former greatness.

Well said!

rooboy wrote:LABRAT REPORT 2005

You're packed. JW will have to update the link to your post in the section header.

MoveoverCinderella wrote:Rat report "Part 2" 2004 Lupine Hill Cab!

Also packed. Also have to wait on JW

rpm wrote:Ya think? It is frustrating for new wine drinkers to spend a pretty penny on wines because of their reputations, and find that they don't like them, or (as is often the case with wines made in more traditional styles) understand them. I'm sympathetic (if intolerant of 'trophy hunters' with more money than sense), but very often the last thing a new wine drinker wants to hear is the very sound advice to start with more modest wines and develop a palate over time, hopefully by tasting with people who are more knowledgeable and capable of teaching the neophyte how to identify aromas, flavors, acid, tannin, and other characteristics so that he or she can begin to organize their impressions of wine and discover their own palates in a systematic way. Being assured, at the same time you explain that they should drink what they like, that as they drink more, their palates will almost certainly change over time.

A former girlfriend of mine from the early 1970s was an "Annie Green Springs" and "Boone's Farm" drinker when we met. I changed her life with a 1964 BV de Latour Cabernet Sauvignon (an unusual year 1964, the entire crop was released as de Latour. a lovely wine at around 6 when it was released). She applied herself over the years, with me and subsequently, and has done semi-professional tasting at the international level and had an outstanding palate firmly grounded in pre-international style Cabernet, Bordeaux and Burgundy. It takes effort, and a good teacher helps, but the basic princples are summed up in my tag line.

I think inexperienced wine drinkers are often well served to spend time with wines that we used to describe as "sound commercial wine" - that is to say well-made wines without pretense to greatness, but rigged to give the drinker the characteristic aromas and flavor of the grape with reasonable balance, a little tannin where appropriate, and to be good values for money.

One of the hardest things to admit, especially for those of us who like small, interesting wineries -- which includes most of the wineries we see here on woot -- , is that some of the industrial wineries make some pretty good wines which sell at pretty good price points. Even the dreaded Gallo which has its hands on a number of old, famous wine labels such as Martini, Frei Brothers (which was known in the trade, along with Seghesio, as a producer of some of the very best bulk wine in California in the old days) and others, makes wines under those labels that are good, true to type, and instructive for not a lot of money, even if those wines are sad shadows of their former greatness.

If this isn't a quality post, there's no such thing.

billmoore wrote:LABRAT REPORT 2005 Question?

I loved the block 13, if you had to choose between the two which one would you pick?

Block 13 for a great QPR and fruit cab! However, Lupine has its place!

Aaaarrrgggghhhh. Why do I read this? I desperately want to click the button.

Unfortunately, according to CellarTracker, I have 204 bottles in stock with 2 InZINerators on the way.

The problem is that 7 cases are in my sons room, which has been vacant for 3 months. He'll be back 4 weeks from today, so I have to either find someplace to put them or drink way faster.

Let's see - 7 cases x 12 bottles / 28 days = 3 bottles a day = SIWBM.

nmachen wrote:Aaaarrrgggghhhh. Why do I read this? I desperately want to click the button.

Unfortunately, according to CellarTracker, I have 204 bottles in stock with 2 InZINerators on the way.

The problem is that 7 cases are in my sons room, which has been vacant for 3 months. He'll be back 4 weeks from today, so I have to either find someplace to put them or drink way faster.

Let's see - 7 cases x 12 bottles / 28 days = 3 bottles a day = SIWBM.

Maybe he could help you drink them. Just saying....

Cesare wrote:Maybe he could help you drink them. Just saying....

He's more of a beer guy - we tried to help him develop the taste for wine, but it hasn't worked so far...

rpm wrote:High end Ravenswood single vineyard Zins can be outstanding in their teens. Lower end (but not bottom end) Ravenswood (the 'Sonoma' or other 'County' wines, not the Vintners Blend) can be very solid. Vinter's Blend is probably the Ravenswood you're thinking of, it is dreck.

1986 Old Hill was SUBLIME when we had it 6 weeks ago. I'm trying to acquire more

Labrat Report

Today I received the 2005 Lupine Hill Cabernet Sauvignon.
Here are my notes, apologies as I'm very new at describing wines:

Color was a very deep to ruby red. Legs were approximately 10mm apart. As MoveoverCinderella reported, the nose is alcohol and cherry. Taste is mildly tart with a hint of pepper. The finish is smooth and dry.

I thoroughly enjoyed this wine. I think $15 per bottle is a great deal and I'm glad I made the purchase.