tenuki wrote:So not sure why I didn't wonder about it until this offering, but what exactly does barrel aging do? Why PN for 9 mos. and Cab for a year and a half? Partly to impart oak, but then people switch to neutral. How many months does it take to impart oak? If it's just for aging and to let the wine progress, why take it out at all (economic reasons aside)? How do you tell when to take it out of the barrels, is it just when the tannins have softened enough so it's drinkable? Thanks,

I realize that there was another answer to this already, but fugured I'd chime in as well. Time on oak is certainly a subjective call depending on the wine in barrel, the barrel, and the desired effect. Even Pinot Noir is often aged for 2 years in Burgundy, due in part to the tighter, more tannic nature of the grapes than we often get in California Pinots. I have also found that in extraction of oak from new barrels (defintitely dependent on the barrel, toast level, and forest), the initial extraction builds up to a peak in the first several months, but often the oak is rather harsh and disjointed. From what I have heard, this has to do with rough extract being the first thing to go, and it's not until later in the process that you start to extract more of the softer elements from the barrel. Over further time in barrel, all of these elements begin to bind together into larger, softer tannins which helps to make the whole package more palatable. You can still have a lot more time to go once it's time for the bottle, but you want to achieve a balance between the fruit and the structural components, not allowing fruit to diminish so much that there's nothing left when the tannins soften up after aging. Once again the cooper, forest, and toast level all affect this process and the decision to bottle or keep the wine in barrel longer, as does the wine itself.

The three wines in this trio are an interesting example, in that the La Brisa was bottled in August 2007 (about 9-10 months in barrel), the Red Label was bottled just after Harvest in November 2007 (13 months, although this was partially for logistic reasons due time constraints during the August bottling) and the Peregrine was bottled at the end of January 2008 (15 months in barrel, because it was very tight in barrel and needed more time to soften up).

In 2007, the wines were are showing well in barrel pretty well, and I decided to bottle everything pre-Harvest 2008 and allow any further aging to occur more slowly in the bottle. In this case, I wanted to capture the fresh side of the fruit that was showing in July and August, and didn't want further barrel aging to diminish that.

Every year I look at the wines individually and make the call, and while I think that most of our 2008's are going to be bottled in July and August 2009 (9-10 months in oak), I still may hold off on some wines until January depending on how they're doing in June and July.

Hope that helps - the earlier answer to your question and your own self-answer were both great already.

Scott

kingsleyr wrote:change for a nickel?

hehe, ya sure you betcha... Figured there had to be some crossover. I even posted on that thread, shouldn't be too hard to figure out.

kolen wrote:Lab rat report for the La Brisa:

I’m not sure how to begin. The enclosed So… you’re a lab rat brochure suggests including an anecdote about the FedEx delivery truck, or perhaps a paragraph about the privilege and excitement of being Chosen, but that’s not really my style. I’ll fast forward to the wine.

I like the label. Classy but contemporary. More wineries should realize that packaging is part of the experience. It seems like there’s nothing on the shelves between look-at-me and boring.

I popped the cork and reluctantly poured a glass for my wife. I tried to argue that the lab rat rules prohibit sharing the wine with others, but she already read the brochure.

I opened the bottle around 9pm, so we drank it sans food. I bet it would be great with a mushroom risotto, but it stood well on its own (at some point I nibbled on a square of Scharffen Berger extra dark… not the best combination).

First impression: Cherry with a little barnyard mustiness. Not bashful. My kind of wine. I would guess the grapes came from Carneros, not the Sonoma Coast. It drank well without decanting. It seemed like a nice sitting-in-front-of-the-fireplace wine. The fruit faded to subtle hints of black tea and sage. Also paired well with the Fleet Foxes (yes I just heard them for the first time on SNL and yes, I know you have been listening to them for the past six months).

One caveat: I have an eccentric palate. I like complex in-your-face wines. I like Parkerized 93-point wines. My wife is the opposite. She likes balanced and smooth tannins. We both liked the La Brisa, so I think it might have universal appeal.

Bottom line: At this price point, the La Brisa represents a ridiculous QPR. If possible, please up my order to three. And a sincere thank you WineDavid. People should trust you by now. How silly we still have to do this little lab rat dance. But glad I could do my part.

Great to see the "labrat" reveiws coming in. I thought I'd chime in with a couple more comments about the LaBrisa in particular.
As the label indicates this is a Sonoma Coast wine. The main sources for the fruit are two: Griffin's Lair Vineyard which is located in the Petaluma Gap area between Sonoma and Petaluma on Lakeville Road. We source Dijon 115, Swan and Pommard cloned from the vineyard. It makes up about 40 to 50% of the wine. The other primary source is from Campbell Ranch which is located out in Annapolis 4 miles from the ocean in a true coastal site. The clonal selection at Campbell is Dijon 667 and 777. This site adds some of the bright red fruit and spice while the Griffin seems to be more about the earthy components and darker fruit. The San Francisco Chronicle picked the wine one of it's Top 100 Wines for 2008 in December of this year and described the wine as follows: "soft, pure dark cherry and damp soil are matched by bright red fruit on the finish and a fine boned structure full of ripe tannins. Big, evocotive and generous." Price wise, since the wine was in the lower 10% of all wines reviewed, we feel it indicates the value of the bottling.
Thanks to everyone for your interest in our wines. The response has been awesome and we're excited about having had the opportunity to expose our wines to so many knowledgeable wine drinkers and potential new fans of our wines!

Hope it's ok to link to a thread in the community area, just wanted to get as many cool ideas as possible. Help me put together a wine related wedding gift!.

Already bought 2 of the current offering (one for me, one for them). Need more ideas.

ERMD wrote:We need a south/central fla woot gathering!

I agree on the South Florida meeting... perhaps try the Roessler's which I'm really looking forward to!

I'm in FLL and always look for a local excuse (oops event)

pnotpdcr wrote:Dan can give some input on the state requirements if anyone has a specific question about one location or another. Each state has seperate requirements and the shipping laws vary in each. The Roessler tag team is ongoing here at our offices in Sonoma... we'll be wooting in earnest in a couple hours!

I remember when I first started in the wine industry and the laws were not so complex. Either a state was reciprocal or we couldn’t ship to that given state. However, times have changed, mostly for the better. States now are free to make their own shipping laws, and unless it is a reciprocal state (only two, NM & IA) the winery has to apply for a license. This has opened a lot more states to ship wine, and most of these licenses are easy to obtain, and require a small yearly fee. However, some states charge large amounts for these permits, and then it becomes a “ends meeting the means” problem for the winery. Some states will also add on a, one time, label registration fee, which for us having 20 different Pinot & Chardonnay labels can become quite expensive. State compliance can be a revolving door, and I apologize for the inconvenience, especially since our website was not updated to the recent changes in some states shipping policies.

LabRat Report:

Edit: This was the 2006 La Brisa.

Color: Garnet, with a very slight purplish tinge. No, tinge is too strong. Call it a "hint of darker fruits" if you will. The color really appealed to me.

Nose: Earth and darker berries, mostly blackberry. Later in the evening, the blackberry in the nose became more pronounced. The earthiness remained, but the balance tipped more toward berry. This was true even though we were into our meal (see below), which had mushrooms in it.

Palate: Cherries! Some plum and darker fruits (maybe I had darker fruits on the brain, but I detected them in each stage). Not a fruit bomb, though - I cannot emphasize that enough. The cherries were the dominant taste, but it was a sophisticated cherry, if you will. Not overbearing. Once we started in on dinner (Beef Burgundy), the earthiness came out, which was probably the heavy broth and mushrooms in the dish.

At the finish, it was dark chocolate and more cherry. My friend said it was a "cherry cordial."

The wine was well balanced, and maintained that balance even an hour later. For the price, this was an exceptional PN. Exceptional. Balance. Sophisticated nose and palate. The interplay between earth and fruit, to me, captured what PNs are about. Definitely not a rose, definitely not a syrah.

A big THANK YOU to WD for the opportunity!

Shapley wrote:dependent on the barrel, toast level, and forest)

How do you toast a barrel? Is there a light/medium/dark dial on the barrel toaster?

CLUE?!?!

Routerhead wrote:LabRat Report:


Color: Garnet, with a very slight purplish tinge. No, tinge is too strong. Call it a "hint of darker fruits" if you will. The color really appealed to me.

Nose: Earth and darker berries, mostly blackberry. Later in the evening, the blackberry in the nose became more pronounced. The earthiness remained, but the balance tipped more toward berry. This was true even though we were into our meal (see below), which had mushrooms in it.

Palate: Cherries! Some plum and darker fruits (maybe I had darker fruits on the brain, but I detected them in each stage). Not a fruit bomb, though - I cannot emphasize that enough. The cherries were the dominant taste, but it was a sophisticated cherry, if you will. Not overbearing. Once we started in on dinner (Beef Burgundy), the earthiness came out, which was probably the heavy broth and mushrooms in the dish.

At the finish, it was dark chocolate and more cherry. My friend said it was a "cherry cordial."

The wine was well balanced, and maintained that balance even an hour later. For the price, this was an exceptional PN. Exceptional. Balance. Sophisticated nose and palate. The interplay between earth and fruit, to me, captured what PNs are about. Definitely not a rose, definitely not a syrah.

A big THANK YOU to WD for the opportunity!

Was this the Red Label?

gcdyersb wrote:Was this the Red Label?

La Brisa. I edited the post to include that.

Yeah, including the wine name is usually good.....

Routerhead wrote:LabRat Report:

Edit: This was the 2006 La Brisa.

Great report, thanks!

acohen wrote:I agree on the South Florida meeting... perhaps try the Roessler's which I'm really looking forward to!

I'm in FLL and always look for a local excuse (oops event)

FLL as well!! Our time has come, we need to organize the first SFL gathering!!! If around Fort Lauderdale I can host at a couple of different places depending on how many people.... any other South Florida wooters lurking out there???

Lighter wrote:How do you toast a barrel? Is there a light/medium/dark dial on the barrel toaster?

Like any problem, it is solved by fire and lots of it. Or more specifically, time over a fire. Often made from staves or stave cut-offs from other/old barrels. Has a bit of a phoenix quality to it.

FLL sounds good - let me know where and when, please

Thank you rats, for the wonderful input!

I so wish I had ordered more. Not that I can afford it...

Arrgh. input... too.. good.. to... pass... up...
Can't wait to try these!

And Black Square to boot! Happy Day!

Roessler Winery Pinot Noir Trio
Current numbers (updated each minute)
First sucker: bkarney
Speed to first woot: 0m 25.750s
Last wooter to woot: mnwrasslin

Lighter wrote:How do you toast a barrel? Is there a light/medium/dark dial on the barrel toaster?

Different coopereages toast differently, and they all have their own recipies for how long and how hot they like to go to achieve low, medium, medium plus, or heavy toast.

Some use gas fires, like a big bunson burner, while others use a more traditional fire (I like the phoenix reference made earlier). The times I have seen it done, staves are fit together in a sort of a truncated cone shape by putting the hoops on 1 half (or maybe a little less) of the barrel and letting the other ends of the staves just flair out. this pseuso oak teepee it then set over the flame with the hooped end up. The heads are not on at this point. After X amount of time, the cooper pulled the barrel in process off the flame, removed the hoops and switched them to the other side, and then returned it to the heat so the opposite ends of the staves were up and hooped.

The heads, in this case, did get toasted, although they aren't always toasted, depending on the cooperage and the preference of the winemaker who orders the barrel. Believe it or not, in this case they used something akin to a big toaster to toast the heads (except that the elements in the toaster were only on the inside walls of the slots so only 1 side of each head was toasted (do I hear "Oak-eggos, anyone?). once all parts are toasted all the parts are assembled together, often with remarkably low-tech tools. Amazing what a hammer/mallet and wedge can create...

Scott

Are you there God? It's me a labrat. You must be because within minutes of sending my username to Wine.Woot!, You blessed me with a quick YES.

I received the wine on Tuesday and opened it around 930pm. I've never attempted to describe the wine experience before, mostly I have tried various Merlots and Cabs and my wife and her family really enjoy Rieslings. I would consider myself somewhat picky though with what I will try to drink. If the wine comes in a box, it is going stay there. Same with beer. I can't stand anything in a can or any of the bud/miller/coors concoctions.

SO, on to my golden ticket. I received the Red Label Roessler. I grabbed 3 glasses and poured for my wife, a friend and myself. The first few sips of the wine were tart to me but got no complaints from my wife and friend. After that, the Red Label was very easy to drink, not overly fruity nor was the aftertaste too strong. The color was more a dark blue/purple, very clear at the edges of the glass. I very much enjoyed the aroma of the wine but my nose inhales sharply and creates suction and there is probably no way I'll ever be able to differentiate the various nuances of it.

This is probably the best way for me to describe it:
If I ordered wine I had never had before in a restaurant, and I got a glass of this, I would ask for a full bottle of it.

I didn't try it with food, but I'm sure this wine would make any dish explode with flavor.
I would recommend against eating it with girl scout cookies, no matter how tempting. Particularly the shortbread cookies with caramel, coconut and chocolate.

Thanks much for the replies on barrel aging. I guess I assumed it would have sort of the same effect as aging in a bottle but accelerated, so why not age a couple more months in a barrel vs. a few years in the bottle. Presumably with too long in the barrel, the fruit kind of goes away like a bottle that's been open too long?

cole103 wrote:Looks like a good offering, but since IA is on delay (till when, April?) I won't order. Still waiting for my Iron Horse (ordered 18Dec08). I know it's my own fault for living in a cold climate, but it's darn frustrating.

Don't know about Iowa, but I got my Wellingtons here in Illinois today from the January woots.

This is very tempting. I really enjoyed the two of the PN's I've had from the WV offering, and I know I will be buying more PN in the future. But I think I will be more likely to woot for a variety of different varietals including Cab in the future. Maybe next time? You guys definitely rocked the house on the technical details though. It was a very enjoyable read, in many ways the definition of why we woot.

Shapley wrote:low, medium, medium plus, or heavy toast.

Jeez! Just a good old campfire! Glad I asked, cauze I'd never believe it otherwise. Phoenix, indeed!

I guess given the price of barrels that you don't keep all toasts in sock. When in the process do you decide what sort of barrel? Or is that a varietal thing? Or what?

Lighter wrote:How do you toast a barrel? Is there a light/medium/dark dial on the barrel toaster?

This video really doesn't capture how loud, smoky and dusty most coopereges are - it's a hellish work environment, not for sissies. btw - NEVER pick a fight with a cooper.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCqJlhnRPAA

bo0oby wrote:Are you there God? It's me a labrat. You must be because within minutes of sending my username to Wine.Woot!, You blessed me with a quick YES.

I received the wine on Tuesday and opened it around 930pm. I've never attempted to describe the wine experience before, mostly I have tried various Merlots and Cabs and my wife and her family really enjoy Rieslings. I would consider myself somewhat picky though with what I will try to drink. If the wine comes in a box, it is going stay there. Same with beer. I can't stand anything in a can or any of the bud/miller/coors concoctions.

SO, on to my golden ticket. I received the Red Label Roessler. I grabbed 3 glasses and poured for my wife, a friend and myself. The first few sips of the wine were tart to me but got no complaints from my wife and friend. After that, the Red Label was very easy to drink, not overly fruity nor was the aftertaste too strong. The color was more a dark blue/purple, very clear at the edges of the glass. I very much enjoyed the aroma of the wine but my nose inhales sharply and creates suction and there is probably no way I'll ever be able to differentiate the various nuances of it.

This is probably the best way for me to describe it:
If I ordered wine I had never had before in a restaurant, and I got a glass of this, I would ask for a full bottle of it.

I didn't try it with food, but I'm sure this wine would make any dish explode with flavor.
I would recommend against eating it with girl scout cookies, no matter how tempting. Particularly the shortbread cookies with caramel, coconut and chocolate.

I love the review done by someone who is not an expert, because I'm in the same boat. The standard for my favorite wine is easy to drink and no bad after taste.
I'm for 2. Thanks bo0oby!

After all the winery participation and other comments I can't help myself!! I gifted my wife. She won't know until the neighbors call and say UPS delvered a packange for her at their house. I'll worry about that problem later. I'm just glad I got more Roessler coming. In for one more (2 total now).

wyonel

SonomaBouliste wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCqJlhnRPAA

Now I see the process. Along with the several other barrel videos that we linked and just had to be seen!

I think for me that all the romance is gone from that career!

dwzdwz wrote:I love the review done by someone who is not an expert, because I'm in the same boat. The standard for my favorite wine is easy to drink and no bad after taste.
I'm for 2. Thanks bo0oby!

Same here on boOoby's rattage, although I do like complexity, tannins, opening up, ect... but those would be hard for me to describe.
I combine the experts' and the less experienced rats' reviews to help me(still being new to wines, and much to learn) decide on a WW purchase. It helps some of us for an occasional "non-technical" review.
I'm still not comfortable in signing up for rattage... maybe someday after acquiring more experience.

psmurf wrote:Same here on boOoby's rattage, although I do like complexity, tannins, opening up, ect... but those would be hard for me to describe.
I combine the experts' and the less experienced rats' reviews to help me(still being new to wines, and much to learn) decide on a WW purchase. It helps some of us for an occasional "non-technical" review.
I'm still not comfortable in signing up for rattage... maybe someday after acquiring more experience.

You have plenty of "experience." If you like wine and can describe why you like it, then you're good to go. I have a 5-cent brain, so I use a Thesaurus.

Seriously. Good wine is what you like. I'm no expert. I get toasted and try to think about what it is I like in a wine, and then hope I remember what it was once I sober up. That's the beauty, IMO, of the labrats - non-experts sharing what they think.

bkarney wrote:FLL as well!! Our time has come, we need to organize the first SFL gathering!!! If around Fort Lauderdale I can host at a couple of different places depending on how many people.... any other South Florida wooters lurking out there???

I'd love to join in but I'm further up the coast in Melbourne. Sounds fun!

Routerhead wrote:You have plenty of "experience." If you like wine and can describe why you like it, then you're good to go. I have a 5-cent brain, so I use a Thesaurus.

Seriously. Good wine is what you like. I'm no expert. I get toasted and try to think about what it is I like in a wine, and then hope I remember what it was once I sober up. That's the beauty, IMO, of the labrats - non-experts sharing what they think.

Your LR report is rather impressive, esp with your "I'm no expert" comment.

My Wellington and Maloy O'Neill orders are due tomorrow(lows tonight here are 20F), and I'm trying to resist this swell deal... esp with ALL the recommendations(including SonomaBouliste himself).
I think SonomaBouliste is Wellington Vineyards??

Winedavid39 wrote:Clue?

Bigger, Stronger, Faster- Single (vineyard)

The correct answer is: Bell Wine Cellars (bellwine.com)

How do I know this? A movie was released in 2008 called "Bigger Stronger Faster" directed by Chris Bell. Now, because I'm so confident I'm correct, please, everyone, know that Bell Wine Cellars will not be the next offer.

Perhaps our new guest blogger: Scott Harvey Superhero?

Just wanted to thank the Roessler folks for the excellent, educational participation. Looking forward to trying your wine and hope to become a regular drinker thereof!

And kudos to the excellent labrats as well.

SonomaBouliste wrote:This video really doesn't capture how loud, smoky and dusty most coopereges are - it's a hellish work environment, not for sissies. btw - NEVER pick a fight with a cooper.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCqJlhnRPAA

Considering the amount of hand craftsmanship what does a typical "virign" barrel go for? Is there a substantial secondary market for wineries looking to use 2+ generation (if that's even a term) barrels for aging?

michaelstencel wrote:Perhaps our new guest blogger: Scott Harvey Superhero?

The credit card can't take that....and you correctly mention he does have the "super hero" wines.

jwink wrote:Considering the amount of hand craftsmanship what does a typical "virign" barrel go for? Is there a substantial secondary market for wineries looking to use 2+ generation (if that's even a term) barrels for aging?

French oak runs a bit less than $1000 per barrel average thanks to the dollar's recovery versus the Euro over the last 4-5 months. American oak coopered traditionally goes for around $300-$400. Two year old barrels are worth 25-35% of new, three year old 15-20%. By the time they're 5 years old they're all worth about $15 each for big flower pots.

SonomaBouliste wrote:French oak runs a bit less than $1000 per barrel average thanks to the dollar's recovery versus the Euro over the last 4-5 months. American oak coopered traditionally goes for around $300-$400. Two year old barrels are worth 25-35% of new, three year old 15-20%. By the time they're 5 years old they're all worth about $15 each for big flower pots.

WOW! $1,000 per barrel... I prefer French oak over American oak every day of the weak.

kylemittskus wrote:WOW! $1,000 per barrel... I prefer French oak over American oak every day of the weak.

Are there companies that just make the barrels and you put an order in for 10 of them and so forth?

Cooperages make and sell the barrels, and we winemakers decide what we want and order each year. Some wineries use barrels exclusively from one cooperage, and others use barrels from several different cooperages, so it's really a question of individual taste preference and what works best on a given wine in the experience of the winemaker.

At Roessler, I use 4 main cooperages at this point, although I like to play with a few barrels each year from a cooper not on my normal list just to see how I like them.

Some of the very popular established cooperages end up with allocations for you based on your previous year's purchase (and you can request an increasse), while other growing or up-and-coming cooperages have more flexibility in offering what ever you want.

Thanks to everyone who answered my question about San Diego wineries. Unfortunately, a couple of hours after my post, the trip was postponed for at least a month...

Oh well - I'll refer back to these notes (and the links to past conversations on the subject) when the time comes. Thanks again wooters.

Lighter wrote:Jeez! Just a good old campfire! Glad I asked, cauze I'd never believe it otherwise. Phoenix, indeed!

I guess given the price of barrels that you don't keep all toasts in sock. When in the process do you decide what sort of barrel? Or is that a varietal thing? Or what?

I have a few main coopers that I like on our wine alot, and as I just mentioned in another reply, I also like to play with a few barrels from a new cooperage each year to try them out.

Right now I'm starting to sort out what I want to order for 2009, and I like to taste through the barrels, copare and contrast different coopers, toast levels, and forests on different vineyards and see if the decisions I made for the 2008s based on the 2007s worked well or if they need tweaking for the next vintage.

For my taste, I tend to work with medium and medium plus barrels and I don't generally go to heavy toast or light toast on our program, but they can work really nicely as well. SOme varietals may lend themselves better to some toast levels, but it really gets down to the subjective flavor sensibilities of the winemaker.