SonomaBouliste wrote:Clay, and Canonizer,

Can you please expand on this? We price most of our wines in this range ($15-25), and I know what goes into them. There are a lot of $30-$50 dollar wines that don't use better grapes, oak, or winemaking: the only reason they are priced higher is desire to make a larger profit, recoup start-up expenses rapidly, or ego.

There are also PLENTY of $30-50 wines that use better grapes, oak, and have better wine making. There are also tons of really bad $15-20 bottles of wine out there that don't justify that cost either.

This is a pretty circular argument. It's really the same argument as "why do you buy luxury brand goods? some of them really aren't that much better"

SonomaBouliste wrote:Clay, and Canonizer,

Can you please expand on this? We price most of our wines in this range ($15-25), and I know what goes into them. There are a lot of $30-$50 dollar wines that don't use better grapes, oak, or winemaking: the only reason they are priced higher is desire to make a larger profit, recoup start-up expenses rapidly, or ego.

I always thought that pricing was pretty much based on what the market will bear - most of us would price our products higher if we thought there was a market at the higher price. My theory is that at that $15-25 price point there's an inherent tradeoff between costs that go in the bottle vs costs incurred to somehow differentiate your product from all the other ones out there (marketing, broadly defined). Thus, for a consumer this price point can be "scary".

In comparing wineries with your philosophy vs. those who have the same costs in the bottle but price their product higher, I would be surprised if the high priced group (as a group) has any more financial success.

Hey wootheads.

It's been a while since we've wooted. This offering is a three-pack of our current offerings, the 04 Sorelle Per Sempre, 05 Claret and 04 Merlot.

For Merlot-haters, just calm down. When Merlot is grown in growing regions that are suitable for the variety, it expresses itself and can be quiet nice. Merlot cannot tolerat heat like Cabs, Syrahs, Petite Sirahs, Zins, etc. In fact, Merlot can grow really well from Pinot Noir country (see some great Carneros Merlots). When done, right, Merlot has great color, dark fruit, interesting spice and earth notes and lots of other highlights that a winemaker can really accentuate. The Merlot is the backbone of the Claret and Sorrelle and in the case of the 04 Merlot, there is a good dose of Cab Sauv in there to give it another gear.

To answer a question on Claret, the term is not protected by trademark or copyright. However, the TTB has determined that it will not allow any new domestically producted Clarets. Since our winery is grandfathered in, we're allowed to produce one.

Our first vintage of Claret and Meritage was the 03 wines. Since many folks were wondering why make two, we ditched the Meritage, as Mr. Armstrong mentioned, and went with a family name - Ezio. Afterall, a family winery has the duty to stick with the family. Meritage is kind of soul-less. The 03 and 04 Mertiage are library selections at the winery.

Allow me to get back to the Claret and the spirit of this wine. Back in 03, we had assembled the top blends and had some barrels that were deemed too fruit forward to really make up the top-tier wines. We blended what was left and made a really friendly wine and Dan Kleck, our winemaker, decided we should call it Claret and it stuck. We sold about 700 cases of that wine for around $17, depending on where you live and it was a hit. 2004 rolled around and it was a difficult year in the vineyard. To get the elements of physcical maturity in our sweet-spot, we dropped a lot of crop. The top wines were reduced in case volume, but the nature of the fruit allowed us to make more of the 04 Claret than we did in 03. We made a whopping 1200 cases and it sold out in a blink of an eye. This brings me to the 05 Claret. For the first time, we did not use a culling-out process to blend the Claret. Rather, we designed it from the beginning, selecting designate blocks and barrels that focused on the ripe, forward fruit and medium weight so the wine would be ready to consume younger, rather than have to bottle age it for 6-12 months like some of our other wines. With the good luck of a healthy crop and the wine's popularity, we've made our biggest single lot ever at 3500 cases. It's 35% of what we make in one single bottling.

The 04 Sorelle Per Sempre (SPS) really represents what our 03 and 04 Claret used to be: a bordeaux variety blend aimed at the fruity yet elegant flavors and a frienlier price tag.

All of our reds are unfined and unfiltered. They're all pretty small-batch. From my experience with them over the 3 years we've been around, they all evolve and change quiet a bit with age. I have even seen some "dumb" stage with wines that needed more bottle age like the 03 Cab did.

I have to run off to an inventory count. I will be back later to answer questions and write a little about the vineyard, where I am today.

Thanks for having us back

Cheers,
Lee

dfvlee wrote:...I have even seen some "dumb" stage with wines that needed more bottle age like the 03 Cab did.

So if I still have an '03 Cab should I give it a little more time? Life's too short to drink dumb wine.

UBlink wrote:I always thought that pricing was pretty much based on what the market will bear - most of us would price our products higher if we thought there was a market at the higher price. My theory is that at that $15-25 price point there's an inherent tradeoff between costs that go in the bottle vs costs incurred to somehow differentiate your product from all the other ones out there (marketing, broadly defined). Thus, for a consumer this price point can be "scary".

In comparing wineries with your philosophy vs. those who have the same costs in the bottle but price their product higher, I would be surprised if the high priced group (as a group) has any more financial success.

well put. Especially the last paragraph. This doesn't apply to france of course, because the 1st growths are a bunch of tards. They haven't changed the way they make wine in a long, their prices go up and down in accordance to vintage quality. Luckily California isn't that bad

UBlink wrote:I always thought that pricing was pretty much based on what the market will bear - most of us would price our products higher if we thought there was a market at the higher price. My theory is that at that $15-25 price point there's an inherent tradeoff between costs that go in the bottle vs costs incurred to somehow differentiate your product from all the other ones out there (marketing, broadly defined). Thus, for a consumer this price point can be "scary".

In comparing wineries with your philosophy vs. those who have the same costs in the bottle but price their product higher, I would be surprised if the high priced group (as a group) has any more financial success.

Good points, all. Perception and value are very subjective when it comes to wine. Some people succeed making wine cheaply and selling it for a high price. Others don't. In the long term, most people who make low qpr wines will find it difficult to maintain sales.

clayfu wrote:There are also PLENTY of $30-50 wines that use better grapes, oak, and have better wine making. There are also tons of really bad $15-20 bottles of wine out there that don't justify that cost either.

This is a pretty circular argument. It's really the same argument as "why do you buy luxury brand goods? some of them really aren't that much better"

Unfortunately, there are a lot of really bad and low qpr wines in the $30 + price range. Maynard Amerine, who founded the Dept. of Viticulture and Enology at UC Davis once said, " A lot of these so-called great wines aren't fit for a dog's lunch" (or something close to that).
There's a much higher correlation of production costs and selling price at the low end of the market. Once you get above $15-20 that correlation drops very quickly.

SonomaBouliste wrote:Unfortunately, there are a lot of really bad and low qpr wines in the $30 + price range. Maynard Amerine, who founded the Dept. of Viticulture and Enology at UC Davis once said, " A lot of these so-called great wines aren't fit for a dog's lunch" (or something close to that).
There's a much higher correlation of production costs and selling price at the low end of the market. Once you get above $15-20 that correlation drops very quickly.

There are also alot of really bad and low qpr wines in the $15-25 range. Like i said, circular argument. There are bad wines to be had in every range. Well.. at least most every range, i think the really high end wines are great wines, i personally can't justify the cost.

The chances of being amazed at $50+ are far more than your chance of being amazed at something from $15-25. I'm talking about your palate and my palate, not the average joe palate. I really don't think there is a right or wrong in this situation.

I just bought a case of wine from a sonoma valley producer of cab, $35 a bottle... absolutely blown away. One of the best QPR's i've had all year.

I just love to see my name in lights.

Representing Minnesota...in for two!

Donati Red - Three Pack
Current numbers (updated each minute):

First sucker: mill
Speed to first woot: 0m 10.203s

Last wooter to woot: TrevynPaige

clayfu wrote:I just bought a case of wine from a sonoma valley producer of cab, $35 a bottle... absolutely blown away. One of the best QPR's i've had all year.

Don't suppose you're going to reveal your find?

uhoerhold wrote:Don't suppose you're going to reveal your find?

PM shall be sent, they only made 75 cases of this particular cab and you're limited to 3 a person. The owner was nice enough to give me some more =P Sorry, back to your regularly scheduled wine.woot offering!

clayfu wrote:There are also alot of really bad and low qpr wines in the $15-25 range. Like i said, circular argument. There are bad wines to be had in every range. Well.. at least most every range, i think the really high end wines are great wines, i personally can't justify the cost.

The chances of being amazed at $50+ are far more than your chance of being amazed at something from $15-25. I'm talking about your palate and my palate, not the average joe palate. I really don't think there is a right or wrong in this situation.

I just bought a case of wine from a sonoma valley producer of cab, $35 a bottle... absolutely blown away. One of the best QPR's i've had all year.

And all the studies that show people will rate wines higher if they THINK it costs more has nothing at all to do with it?

If a wine costs more than $50, it better be amazing! I would think the QPR would be lower with a higher costing wine, since it costs more to begin with, and a lower cost wine that is amazing would have a higher QPR, BECAUSE it cost less to begin with.

jwhite6114 wrote:23 and counting.

I realize of course that it was only a woot-off... but... I did get first sucker status on the recent Corison Cabernet Two-Pack offering.
What exactly do you think it says that I have been so excited and proud about that little tidbit?
Sad. I know.
I'll console myself with the wine.
I am SO tempted to get this Donati. I enjoyed it the last time. We'll see.

yum. I bet you can feel the heat though.

MarkDaSpark wrote:And all the studies that show people will rate wines higher if they THINK it costs more has nothing at all to do with it?

If a wine costs more than $50, it better be amazing! I would think the QPR would be lower with a higher costing wine, since it costs more to begin with, and a lower cost wine that is amazing would have a higher QPR, BECAUSE it cost less to begin with.

QPR isn't lower with a higher costing wine, because the Q is higher in relation to the P. There are many AMAZING $50 wines out there that would match the same QPR as an AMAZING $20 wine. I'd love to discuss it over some wine some time.

Labrats anyone? I am on the fence. I really should not buy this since I am trying to save for a house and I am in grad school and I am just impecunious anyway, but unfiltered sounds delicious.

iByron wrote:Now you rated the Meritage 86 then 89, neither of which reads as "decidedly unimpressed" to me. Especially since you gave the Merlot 87 then 89. Those are endorsement scores from someone who's opinion is valued.

Anyhow, I liked them both, and I'm glad to have another shot at their Merlot. That and Luna were the perfect wine for my Filet Mignons with Merlot Cream Sauce recipe. And two red blends one Bordeaux and one Bordeaux+...it's really a matter of one or two.

iByron

The merlot scores I stick by (maybe 88+ the 2nd time). I rated the meritage 89 the second time? and 86 the first? Damn, I remember it more like 83 then 86. I think I was a lot more generous with my scoring in the fall...

laurmom wrote:I realize of course that it was only a woot-off... but... I did get first sucker status on the recent Corison Cabernet Two-Pack offering.
What exactly do you think it says that I have been so excited and proud about that little tidbit?
Sad. I know.
I'll console myself with the wine.
I am SO tempted to get this Donati. I enjoyed it the last time. We'll see.

And your First Sucker has been duly noted on the list and your place in history preserved. (seriously -- we have a list)

andyduncan wrote:Exactly, who wants Casablanca?

Thats exactly my point.

kylemittskus wrote:Labrats anyone? I am on the fence. I really should not buy this since I am trying to save for a house and I am in grad school and I am just impecunious anyway, but unfiltered sounds delicious.

Labrats won't check in until tomorrow (when they receive the wine) or Wednesday (for East Coast Wooters).

clayfu wrote:QPR isn't lower with a higher costing wine, because the Q is higher in relation to the P. There are many AMAZING $50 wines out there that would match the same QPR as an AMAZING $20 wine. I'd love to discuss it over some wine some time.

We must do so. And have Java referee ...

We just visited Donati and were impressed how good they were, especially for a new winery. We bought the Claret and Sorelle and wish we'd bought a few more. We'll we did now!

MarkDaSpark wrote:Labrats won't check in until tomorrow (when they receive the wine) or Wednesday (for East Coast Wooters).

Not necessarily so. The one time I got a labrat wine in Buffalo, it arrived late Tuesday AM. I'm hoping for the same thing tomorrow. If it happens, there will be a report tomorrow evening.

DonaldWilliams wrote:Not necessarily so. The one time I got a labrat wine in Buffalo, it arrived late Tuesday AM. I'm hoping for the same thing tomorrow. If it happens, there will be a report tomorrow evening.

Same here, FedEx was here (NYC) before noon Tuesday.

jwhite6114 wrote:And your First Sucker has been duly noted on the list and your place in history preserved. (seriously -- we have a list)

Thank you. Thank you very much. I will sleep better tonight.

Out of curiousity, can you tell me the taste differences between the Claret and the Sorelle Per Sempre ? Seems to me it's really just a flip of the cab sauv and the merlot?

jgazlay wrote:We just visited Donati and were impressed how good they were, especially for a new winery. We bought the Claret and Sorelle and wish we'd bought a few more. We'll we did now!

You've been out there a year, and just posted for the first time. Welcome aboard!

Response to clayfu and 04 SPS v. 05 Claret

The biggest difference is not so much in the varietal composition as much as the vintage.

The 2004 SPS, IMO, is a bit more earth and spice over dark fruit and had more time in oak, but not in oak extraction mode, but older barrels over the last 6 months that added more polish to the wine.

The 2005 Claret marks its territory with the addition of our first crop of Petite Verdot. In addition, the 14% Syrah portion was markedly different that year with more leathery notes and really nice color. The added youth of the 05 Claret gives the wine a little more of a juicy quality when compared the the rusticity of the 04 SPS.

UBlink wrote:So if I still have an '03 Cab should I give it a little more time? Life's too short to drink dumb wine.

No, I found it going dumb for a month, month and a half right around the first of the year. It could have been me, but I tried it a few times over several weeks and saw a real gear-shift in the wine.

The mags of 03 Cab are tasting great!

SonomaBouliste wrote:Clay, and Canonizer,

Can you please expand on this? We price most of our wines in this range ($15-25), and I know what goes into them. There are a lot of $30-$50 dollar wines that don't use better grapes, oak, or winemaking: the only reason they are priced higher is desire to make a larger profit, recoup start-up expenses rapidly, or ego.

I think we all understand that this is going on, and it really prevents splurging on a good bottle of wine. What I think wine.woot brings to the table is a filtering mechanism that allows us to compare notes with each other, respond, and in the process, we find wineries that are amazing who do the same things you do. This provides a tremendous value to the winery in knowing that they are getting a large marketing exposure among us, and provides value to us in the form of great wines at a lower price point than is possible elsewhere, or that are unavailable locally.

Take last week's Greg Norman offering, for example. While I find that $30 wines are out of my price range at the moment, and kind of balk at them generally for that reason, there were a lot of reasons to be confident that what you are getting for your dollar is a great international wine, which helps quiet fears that we might have while looking at the same bottle in a store setting.

Or the Robert Craig Cab that was $50-something a bottle. It seemed like a feeding frenzy that week, with everyone chiming in on how good they thought it was. That sort of thing would never happen at the store, as we are always evaluating the storeperson's opinions and recommendations. If together we seem to agree that a bottle is phenomenal, we just let everyone else know, and we know that everyone is on the same side here, just trying to experience exceptional wine.

I think at the end of the day, I agree that wineries that produce bad values will not survive long, but I think also that wine.woot allows people like me who are just getting into wine to somewhat correctly value what would be a splurge purchase most of the time. The bottles that I have purchased in the $15-25 range from woot have been fantastic, truly exceptional for my experiences and palate. And without these experiences, I'd still be buying ~$10 bottles from the grocery store that aren't half of some of these $15 bottles, or not knowing what to get at the store. So from me, thank you wine.woot for all that you have taught me and allowed to experience over the past 9 months or so. It has been and continues to be truly phenomenal. The winery exposure here is also not to be missed, as nowhere else would someone like me have that opportunity. Peace.

Why do we woot? The answer is not simple, but I can simplify my best shot: get the juice in your glass.

So what's this juice all about? In a word, it's about growing fruit to its optimum stage of physical maturity. For us, we look for a balance of key elements that we can analyze as the grapes develop. Since we have been around since 2005, strived to get better with every single facet of our winery because we truly want to deliver a VERY high QPR for folks like you wooters.

Wouldn't it be nice if nature played along and delivered predictable, stable weather conditions? Wouldn't it be sweet if all the available nutrients the grapes need to grow and maintain were always there? Wouldn't it be dreamy if new high-quality oak barrels were cheap? Wouldn't it be a miracle if the cost of glass bottles, tin capsules, cork, labels, boxes and transportation did not increase EVERY single year? I haven't even touched on health care costs and other operating costs. I haven't even talked about how much a new open-top fermenter costs, not to mention the punch-down mechanism that is being designed. A new crush pad? You can buy a nice home in many parts of the US for that collection of devices.

I have read a lot about wine and pricing in these comments. I won't respond directly to specific wines of ours or anyone other winery's wines. But the costs I mentioned above are very real and not the complete picture. I also want to let wooters know that we're sensitive to the final price of the product. We could not sustain ourselves at woot prices. In a word, we woot because we want to introduce our wines to a smart group of people who can appreciate a good bottle of wine. There is no way to convey all of the hard work on our end when you have a bottle in your hand, but here at woot, we have a chance to hear your feedback and respond. This is why we woot.

Finally an offering I think I'm going to be able to resist! No ratings above 90, no killer 50+% savings, no famous vinophile name, no outrageous reputation....

You wait, the rats will give this glowing reviews and I'll cave.

The Alc % in this wine really terrifies me, do you think you could comment on it? One of them is just shy of 15%, which is huge for my mouth.

iByron wrote:That's not a bad hypothesis though I would tend to think that it'd be less about having "turned away" from the Meritage Society than about their having added Syrah to the blend.

Meritage has to contain two or more of seven specific "Bordeaux" varietals. Syrah is not one of them, but the make-up of this wine is obviously Bordeaux-heavy. Thus, the designation "Claret."

Nope! Good guess, though.

We sat around the graduated cylinder and blended. Tasted better with the Syrah and that was that

thrawn1020 wrote:I think we all understand that this is going on, and it really prevents splurging on a good bottle of wine. What I think wine.woot brings to the table is a filtering mechanism that allows us to compare notes with each other, respond, and in the process, we find wineries that are amazing who do the same things you do. This provides a tremendous value to the winery in knowing that they are getting a large marketing exposure among us, and provides value to us in the form of great wines at a lower price point than is possible elsewhere, or that are unavailable locally.

Take last week's Greg Norman offering, for example. While I find that $30 wines are out of my price range at the moment, and kind of balk at them generally for that reason, there were a lot of reasons to be confident that what you are getting for your dollar is a great international wine, which helps quiet fears that we might have while looking at the same bottle in a store setting.

Or the Robert Craig Cab that was $50-something a bottle. It seemed like a feeding frenzy that week, with everyone chiming in on how good they thought it was. That sort of thing would never happen at the store, as we are always evaluating the storeperson's opinions and recommendations. If together we seem to agree that a bottle is phenomenal, we just let everyone else know, and we know that everyone is on the same side here, just trying to experience exceptional wine.

I think at the end of the day, I agree that wineries that produce bad values will not survive long, but I think also that wine.woot allows people like me who are just getting into wine to somewhat correctly value what would be a splurge purchase most of the time. The bottles that I have purchased in the $15-25 range from woot have been fantastic, truly exceptional for my experiences and palate. And without these experiences, I'd still be buying ~$10 bottles from the grocery store that aren't half of some of these $15 bottles, or not knowing what to get at the store. So from me, thank you wine.woot for all that you have taught me and allowed to experience over the past 9 months or so. It has been and continues to be truly phenomenal. The winery exposure here is also not to be missed, as nowhere else would someone like me have that opportunity. Peace.

Great post. My wine experience was fairly limited until I've found wine.woot recently. It's amazing what one can learn from participating in this forum. I have not purchased any wine from a store in a while as nothing can replace opinion of so many dedicated "members". Most my purchases were based on reviews and opinions of fellow wooters rather then price of the wine. Just my $0.02.

dfvlee wrote:

I have read a lot about wine and pricing in these comments. I won't respond directly to specific wines of ours or anyone other winery's wines. But the costs I mentioned above are very real and not the complete picture. I also want to let wooters know that we're sensitive to the final price of the product. We could not sustain ourselves at woot prices. In a word, we woot because we want to introduce our wines to a smart group of people who can appreciate a good bottle of wine. There is no way to convey all of the hard work on our end when you have a bottle in your hand, but here at woot, we have a chance to hear your feedback and respond. This is why we woot.

Reach 300 of us, and have us evangelize you to the end of days with all our wine-drinking fiends/friends? I think that works out to a win for everyone involved. Heck, we'll evangelize within the group for a long time after you woot with us. Like how i just finished a bottle of the Peltier Station PS and was completely blown away by it, even though I really enjoyed the first bottle I drank too. I think on the whole, there is much value to this community. Like I said above, we get tremendous access here that we could only get by visiting wineries otherwise. But to get that access in real time, online and every week of the year, and paired with great wines at tremendous prices? Priceless.

akretz wrote:The Alc % in this wine really terrifies me, do you think you could comment on it? One of them is just shy of 15%, which is huge for my mouth.

Any wine that is out of balance scares me. When you have wines that are at optimum physiological maturity, you have balance. We are sensitive to crossing the high-alcohol threshold and some people are more sensitive to this than others. However, I feel we've maintained balance in this aim.

There are things we have done in the vineyard to avoid too much sugar development that leads to hot and/or sweet wines. Leaf removal, cluster thinning, and vine maturity have all helped in achieving physiological ripeness without going over the top.