clayfu


quality posts: 10 Private Messages clayfu

clayfu


quality posts: 10 Private Messages clayfu
ERMD wrote:Well you said we should sit around and share info with others in order to Learn; correct? well lets see if someone only drinks 2 bottles per month, how much can you learn verses 3-5 times a week.




i think you only took parts of what i said before.

I get together once a month to drink about 15 different bottles at least. I drink the equivalent of ONE to TWO bottle's worth of wine but i'm drinking 15 different types of wine. edit: and we discuss the flavor profiles and etc, I think its fun, doesn't seem like work to me.

I have friends who drink wine daily doesn't mean they know anything more about wine right? Just means you drink more wine. You said it yourself you drink the wine just to enjoy it and be in the presence of your wife. Just because you do that 3-5 times a week doesn't mean you suddenly know wine instantly. But for all I know you do understand wine, but just because you drink more doesn't mean you instantly know more.




rpm


quality posts: 175 Private Messages rpm
ERMD wrote:Ok so if someone really is intent on learning about the aromas/taste , ok great. But damn,just seems like its pushed, you must/should know what your drinking.



That's probably a fair complaint -- most of us who are "appreciative consumers" who do evaluate wines and who take great pleasure in the conversation have a bit of the missionary in us, we want people to experience what we're experiencing because we think they'd get so much more out of drining wine if they did. But, of course, in some cases, we make converts (usually only when we can deliver an AHA! experience) and more often not. But, we never stop trying.

Wine-tasting in 8 words:
Pull lots of corks!
Remember what you taste!

clayfu


quality posts: 10 Private Messages clayfu
rpm wrote:That's probably a fair complaint -- most of us who are "appreciative consumers" who do evaluate wines and who take great pleasure in the conversation have a bit of the missionary in us, we want people to experience what we're experiencing because we think they'd get so much more out of drining wine if they did. But, of course, in some cases, we make converts (usually only when we can deliver an AHA! experience) and more often not. But, we never stop trying.



what got me before was someone telling me they smelled an inflatable raft. That's what got me going.

ERMD


quality posts: 1 Private Messages ERMD
clayfu wrote:what got me before was someone telling me they smelled an inflatable raft. That's what got me going.


Ok so Lets all get together( cant make the RPM tour though) maybe in paso/creston.

bhodilee


quality posts: 32 Private Messages bhodilee
MaskedMarvel wrote:And, I know I don't have to ask - but PLEASE don't shanghai this thread with OT stuff. We all know the risks of putting your name, phone number, and picture on the Internet. Let's talk about the risks of melted plastic ...



I'm gonna have to disagree, there's a reason it's such a common crime. I do apologize however for wanting to attempt to protect someone I've come to respect a great deal. I realize that was quite selfish of me and I should have stayed on topic. Perhaps I should have phrased it thusly:

I once was drinking some white wine and I swear it smelled just like my pants when I posted some personal info on the internet and got my identity stolen and got a credit card bill for 15k the next month.

I'll go build my own thread, with blackjack, and hookers. In fact forget the blackjack...ah screw the whole thing.

And insofar as melted plastic is concerned, never throw a firecracker in it, I've still got a scar on my upper lip from that.

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."

– George Bernard Shaw, author (1856-1950)

MaskedMarvel


quality posts: 11 Private Messages MaskedMarvel
bhodilee wrote:I'm gonna have to disagree, there's a reason it's such a common crime. I do apologize however for wanting to attempt to protect someone I've come to respect a great deal. I realize that was quite selfish of me and I should have stayed on topic. Perhaps I should have phrased it thusly:

I once was drinking some white wine and I swear it smelled just like my pants when I posted some personal info on the internet and got my identity stolen and got a credit card bill for 15k the next month.

I'll go build my own thread, with blackjack, and hookers. In fact forget the blackjack...ah screw the whole thing.

And insofar as melted plastic is concerned, never throw a firecracker in it, I've still got a scar on my upper lip from that.



Wasn't a personal attack d00d.

MaskedMarvel


quality posts: 11 Private Messages MaskedMarvel

Lots of great stuff this evening.

I'm getting ready to build a new wine list where i work, and I'm SOOO tempted to try and build one based on MOOD. if only I could train the staff to be knowledgeable enough to follow through on the question - "Suggest a wine? Sure! How are you FEELING right now..."

Thanks for all the great input tonight!

clayfu


quality posts: 10 Private Messages clayfu
bhodilee wrote:I'm gonna have to disagree, there's a reason it's such a common crime. I do apologize however for wanting to attempt to protect someone I've come to respect a great deal. I realize that was quite selfish of me and I should have stayed on topic. Perhaps I should have phrased it thusly:

I once was drinking some white wine and I swear it smelled just like my pants when I posted some personal info on the internet and got my identity stolen and got a credit card bill for 15k the next month.

I'll go build my own thread, with blackjack, and hookers. In fact forget the blackjack...ah screw the whole thing.

And insofar as melted plastic is concerned, never throw a firecracker in it, I've still got a scar on my upper lip from that.



you've been on a roll this week.
Don't forget to tip the waitress!

rpm


quality posts: 175 Private Messages rpm
clayfu wrote:sorry studying for criminal procedure in a group right now =P



Momentary thread hijack: Criminal procedure was fun! I was always fascinated with entrapment and the underlying philosophical issues it involves, and wrote a Comment on Causation and Intention in the Entrapment Defense for the UCLA Law Review once upon a time.

Wine-tasting in 8 words:
Pull lots of corks!
Remember what you taste!

ERMD


quality posts: 1 Private Messages ERMD
rpm wrote:That's probably a fair complaint -- most of us who are "appreciative consumers" who do evaluate wines and who take great pleasure in the conversation have a bit of the missionary in us, we want people to experience what we're experiencing because we think they'd get so much more out of drining wine if they did. But, of course, in some cases, we make converts (usually only when we can deliver an AHA! experience) and more often not. But, we never stop trying.


And this is why I love discussing wine, because of the passion it brings out. Yes I also smell and taste but my argument is that its pushed on the newer enjoyers of our passion and thus are afraid to partake because of the snoobs(not saying either of you are, sounds like you two are great and I really would like to drink with several out there)
My point also is that as long as you can ENJOY drinking while tasting rather than only focusing on what aromas/taste are there.

Cheers my friends and enjoy

jwhite6114


quality posts: 119 Private Messages jwhite6114
MaskedMarvel wrote:Lazy man's quote there...

That's kind of what I'm talking about. I liken it to describing music. I am always very careful, and appreciative when others are as well, to NOT use judgemental terms like "awesome, etc etc." People like different things. While there is a clear line between simple white noise and Mozart, there is much less between Beethoven and Bach. Who am I to tell someone they'll like something or something is better? All I can say is I like something, and offer it to their own opinion. Hopefully, we're speaking the same language at the time...

The melted plastic wine is going to a friend tonight. I await his analysis. :P



Though different reviews have different purposes. If I am reading a review of a wine to determine if I may like it, or if the point of the review is to be descriptive, then I want objectivity. If I am looking for recommendations, then I want opinion, conjecture, and personal biases to be included (though they must be clear to be such, and not presented as fact). If *I* am writing something for friends, or to be posted as my personal statement, then I am very likely to include subjective terms such as "awesome" and "terrible". These words should convey that this is my opinion and make my opinion clear to the reader.

I think there are many cases for both subjective and objective reviews. I think the latter are more difficult, and the number of those needed is less (after all, if the first objective review is truly objective, then I am not likely to need another (be it music, wine, movies, or whatever)). Subjective reviews are more entertaining, and more useful when it comes to finding something new and interesting -- I am relying on the hater / reviewer to find the good stuff for me. Even if they are not 100%, the chances of that reviewer finding something worthwhile are better than my chances on my own. If I have both, then I can cross-check the "recommendations" with the objective review, and make a decision.

CT | | | | | |

jwhite6114


quality posts: 119 Private Messages jwhite6114
ERMD wrote:I like to experience wine myself, not analyze. Let me explain. MM, I believe you are in music. So if you listen in concert BB King, Eric Clapton or even a local garage band, can you REALLY enjoy the music or is it just second nature to be able to pick up that 1 missed note or off place chord? Does it become more like work. That is why I dont go for the descriptors in wine. I like the experience. Sitting with a friend in Paso eating local food or maybe Rhone area of France.

I guess what I'm getting at is dont let it become a necessity to analyze, but enjoy



I get this. For me, though, I feel like I need to expand my knowledge and ability to assess and appreciate wines in order to best experience and enjoy it. If I find something I like and just stick with it, what am I missing that I might enjoy even more? Then there is variety ... even as I find different things I like, I now need to know the differences in order to know when I want each and how to recommend to others (not as a job, but it can be fun to share).

CT | | | | | |

jwhite6114


quality posts: 119 Private Messages jwhite6114
rpm wrote:The problem is that we lack a mutually agreed common vocabulary and, common standards for evaluation. That's one of the reasons I like to work with the Davis and modified Davis scorecards: what I describe using that vocabulary and system can be pretty reasonably understood by anyone familiar with it. But, there is an investment in becoming familiar with the language and approach which most people are not interested in.


So, besides the reading you have recommended, what other investment do you believe is necessary for this?

CT | | | | | |

jwhite6114


quality posts: 119 Private Messages jwhite6114
ERMD wrote:And this is why I love discussing wine, because of the passion it brings out. Yes I also smell and taste but my argument is that its pushed on the newer enjoyers of our passion and thus are afraid to partake because of the snoobs(not saying either of you are, sounds like you two are great and I really would like to drink with several out there)
My point also is that as long as you can ENJOY drinking while tasting rather than only focusing on what aromas/taste are there.

Cheers my friends and enjoy


I usually start by trying to identify aromas, and flavors ... then once I have given it my shot, I enjoy. Sometimes as it changes I give it a conscious go again, but it never gets in the way. For me.

CT | | | | | |

MaskedMarvel


quality posts: 11 Private Messages MaskedMarvel
ERMD wrote:I like to experience wine myself, not analyze. Let me explain. MM, I believe you are in music. So if you listen in concert BB King, Eric Clapton or even a local garage band, can you REALLY enjoy the music or is it just second nature to be able to pick up that 1 missed note or off place chord? Does it become more like work. That is why I dont go for the descriptors in wine. I like the experience. Sitting with a friend in Paso eating local food or maybe Rhone area of France.

I guess what I'm getting at is dont let it become a necessity to analyze, but enjoy



In fact, it may be blissful ignorance that simply allows you to enjoy the music to begin with...

Learning music theory screwed up how I listen to music, now that I hear the (almost formulaic) mathematical relationship of how most is written.

I can't imagine that happening to me and wine though. Learning what I'm doing and how to do it is (and what to call it) is only going to further me seeking out or avoiding wines. It'd be nice to not have another glass of melted plastic, if I could help it...


EDIT - Reading back over this, I'm thinking it sounds a little harsher than I intended. I definitely enjoy music. And theory HAS enhanced my appreciation. That's a better way to put it...

rpm


quality posts: 175 Private Messages rpm
jwhite6114 wrote:I usually start by trying to identify aromas, and flavors ... then once I have given it my shot, I enjoy. Sometimes as it changes I give it a conscious go again, but it never gets in the way. For me.



It shouldn't. I don't think I've had a wine that I didn't give at least a 'quick and dirty' evaluation to in the past 50 years.

For most wines, and in most circumstances, my process is something like this: with some, based solely on the nose, I know it's probably not worth serious attention, and with the first sip into my mouth, I can usually decide how carefully to evaluate it. If it seems like something may be going on with a wine, I'll pay as much attention to it as seems warranted: that is, if there's not much going on, I stop paying close attention pretty quickly, but if there's a lot going on, I'll kick into serious mode and go to 'work' on the wine.

The other mode is when I'm consciously tasting seriously from the get go, which is usually at some sort of trade tasting or other (more or less) formal evaluative tasting situation - when I labrat, I take this approach as well.

In that mode, I've done some homework usually - reviewing prior notes and resources on the type of wines I'll be tasting. Then, I make sure I don't have any strong flavors in my mouth, or any cologne, or other distracting aromas around. (Women wearing perfume at trade tastings should be condemned to tramp grapes with their feet for a year or so!) and I try to eat mostly neutral bread in advance (that's tricky now with my diabetes). I also make sure I've got pencil and a notepad (or the program if there's one prepared. In these circumstances, I give the wine a swirl, and look at the color (over a white background and the legs. If it's a serious tasting, I'll make a note then and there on that), then a good sharp sniff, perhaps a second softer sniff (again making aroma notes at that point in a serious tasting), then a sip, aeration over the tongue, swish in the mouth, an almost complete spit into a spitoon, and just enough left to test the finish (which you don't really have to swallow to assess). If it's a fairly informal tasting, I'll take my all my notes then, if it's more serious, the balance of my notes. In an informal tasting with friends, I may talk about the wine along the way, but in a serious trade or connoisseur level tasting, I am careful not to make any comments or listen to anyone else until I have made my own assessment, and written it down. At trade tastings, with vinters and/or importers and/or wholesalers, I like to discuss the wines after I've evaluated them. And, in those discussions I try to speak technically about the wine rather than saying I love it or hate it or am indifferent to it. (Although sometimes it comes out...)

Tasting in the first way, I don't think you can evaluate more than 3-5 wines with any accuracy, though you could certainly say you enjoy them or not. In "professional mode" if I'm being really careful about spitting, I can probably try 25 wines before I have to take a 1/2 hour break or so, and be fairly confident I've been fair to each of them. I have participated in trade/professional tasting where I had to taste as many as 100 wines in a day, and a fair number of them pretty ordinary, at best. At that point, it really is work and not a whole lot of fun -- though usually at the end you can eat some pretty good food and have a couple of glasses of something really very good or (only occasionally) actually 'great'.

Wine-tasting in 8 words:
Pull lots of corks!
Remember what you taste!

Loweeel


quality posts: 5 Private Messages Loweeel
rpm wrote:I think this introductory material from Amerine & Roessler sheds some light on this discussion, and the reason there seems to be so much talking past one another on the boards here, where people in the first category (perhaps a majority) are looking for help simply finding wines they like, and people in the second category (everyone else except SB and the wine makers who chime in) are more interested in a more nuanced or full appreciation of the wines, and want to talk about them in these terms.

The problem is that we lack a mutually agreed common vocabulary and, common standards for evaluation. That's one of the reasons I like to work with the Davis and modified Davis scorecards: what I describe using that vocabulary and system can be pretty reasonably understood by anyone familiar with it. But, there is an investment in becoming familiar with the language and approach which most people are not interested in.


At the Seder, my mom asked (rhetorically) how she and my dad managed to raise 2 sons who had gotten so into wine.

My brother had a very interesting response. He responded that my parents didn't raise wineaux, they raised geeks. And, being the geeks we are, when we get interested in something, we want to know EVERYTHING about it. The nice thing about wine is that there is always more to learn and to experience; and I find that my science background and analytical nature really help me to slice things up.

Favorites: Roessler ¬ KRPN ¬ Etude ¬ Stuart ¬ KRPort ¬ Tøøthstejnn ¬ Titus ¬ URSA ¬ InZin ¬ SBMystery ¬ SxBS&Z+4 ¬ DC3&4 ¬ TyC3&FB ¬ FeEquus ¬ PSPS ¬ Harvey ¬ SBRes&CR ¬ Corison ¬ Noceto ¬ Humbug ¬ KRSEXY3SOME ¬ PoiZin06 ¬ POLY ¬ Castoro ¬ SBCab ¬ KRPS2K ¬ HW12 ¬ GSaké ¬ הגפןCab ¬ PepBr

CT ¬ PSychos' Path
"The one difference between me and Petite Sirah is that I don't have a dumb period." - YT

themostrighteous


quality posts: 12 Private Messages themostrighteous
Loweeel wrote:At the Seder, my mom asked (rhetorically) how she and my dad managed to raise 2 sons who had gotten so into wine.

My brother had a very interesting response. He responded that my parents didn't raise wineaux, they raised geeks. And, being the geeks we are, when we get interested in something, we want to know EVERYTHING about it. The nice thing about wine is that there is always more to learn and to experience; and I find that my science background and analytical nature really help me to slice things up.


gees, i dunno, but was that a COMPLIMENT you just paid thatguy?!? INCONCEIVABLE!

do you know... what biodynamics is?

synchrodan


quality posts: 7 Private Messages synchrodan
MaskedMarvel wrote:In fact, it may be blissful ignorance that simply allows you to enjoy the music to begin with...

Learning music theory screwed up how I listen to music, now that I hear the (almost formulaic) mathematical relationship of how most is written.

I can't imagine that happening to me and wine though. Learning what I'm doing and how to do it is (and what to call it) is only going to further me seeking out or avoiding wines. It'd be nice to not have another glass of melted plastic, if I could help it...


EDIT - Reading back over this, I'm thinking it sounds a little harsher than I intended. I definitely enjoy music. And theory HAS enhanced my appreciation. That's a better way to put it...



What you bring up here is interesting. There was a time in my life when I was a very serious musician, studying music theory and performance. It got to the point where, unless I was at a very high quality performance, I could no longer enjoy the music. I remember going to college-level orchestra concerts and wanting to leave because they were so lacking in what I understood to be the standard at which music should be played. So now I feel like I need to go to the New York Philharmonic or something comparable, to enjoy a performance.

But does this apply to wine? I think it could, but this isn’t necessarily a bad thing. For example, listening to a college-level orchestra might be like drinking an average $12 bottle of wine. There was a time when I would have enjoyed it, but my tastes (or more aptly put, knowledge of wine and what it ought to taste like) have evolved past that level.

On one hand this is bad, because I may now come off as something of a “wine snob”, as it is rare that a wine under $15 produces much enjoyment on my part. On the other hand this is great, because I now enjoy good wine even more. Seven years ago, if I were to drink an incredible Bordeaux from the 1990s, I probably would not have really been able to appreciate the difference between that, and say, a bottle of mediocre 2006 Merlot from Sonoma. Or to use the analogy above, I appreciate and enjoy what I hear at the New York Philharmonic now far more than I would have when I was in, say, 5th grade.

By better understanding the complexities of wine it enhances the enjoyment. Obviously, there is a downside to this as well, but in my opinion, the benefit far outweighs this cost. Greater knowledge/understanding does not limit the enjoyment one can have from wine, just the enjoyment one can have from bad wine. Meanwhile, it enhances the enjoyment one would have from great wine.

In philosophical (or even economic) terms, I would say that learning more about wine (or music) changes the shape of one’s utility curve. One with less knowledge/understanding probably has a utility curve the shape of a log function (convex and asymptotic to some point). As your knowledge grows, I would argue that this curve becomes flatter until it becomes linear, then concave, and maybe even exponential.

Perhaps ignorance is bliss, but with knowledge you know how good bliss can truly be.

clayfu


quality posts: 10 Private Messages clayfu
synchrodan wrote:
On one hand this is bad, because I may now come off as something of a “wine snob”, as it is rare that a wine under $15 produces much enjoyment on my part. On the other hand this is great, because I now enjoy good wine even more. Seven years ago, if I were to drink an incredible Bordeaux from the 1990s,



what a snob! j/k And stop drinking the incredible bordeaux from the 90's they are still infants, STOP KILLING BABIESSSSS hehe. =P Favorite 90's wine that's not too expensive.. 1996 Lagrange. Yum yum.

themostrighteous


quality posts: 12 Private Messages themostrighteous
clayfu wrote:what a snob! j/k And stop drinking the incredible bordeaux from the 90's they are still infants, STOP KILLING BABIESSSSS hehe. =P Favorite 90's wine that's not too expensive.. 1996 Lagrange. Yum yum.


pot. kettle. black.

do you know... what biodynamics is?

synchrodan


quality posts: 7 Private Messages synchrodan
clayfu wrote:what a snob! j/k And stop drinking the incredible bordeaux from the 90's they are still infants, STOP KILLING BABIESSSSS hehe. =P Favorite 90's wine that's not too expensive.. 1996 Lagrange. Yum yum.



Hah if only I had such bordeaux laying around. I did have a ridiculously good 1997 Tuscan Sangiovese a few weeks ago though. Incredible.

themostrighteous


quality posts: 12 Private Messages themostrighteous

i admit that i have NOT experienced the phenomenon described by some here (whether historical or projected) WRT my appreciation of simpler wines. i have found that as my palate has evolved - and, though still a relatively experienced palate, it is infinitely more evolved than when i set out on this adventure - i have not necessarily lost interest in simpler wines but rather my appreciation of them has changed. wines that i may have once thought complex & nuanced have become simple & obvious. does that mean that there is no place for wines like that in my repertoire? if i enjoyed wine but 2-3 times per month (as clay seems to), i think the answer would be a resounding no, but that is certainly not my case. just my $0.02.

EDIT: and, just to be clear, i am NOT talking about PLONK. plonk is plonk. simpler wines are just that.

EDIT ^2: sorry, MM, i couldn't resist jumping in after all!

do you know... what biodynamics is?

clayfu


quality posts: 10 Private Messages clayfu
themostrighteous wrote:pot. kettle. black.



=O.
Question for anyone.

When i smell green peppers + black pepper + earth in my wine, why do i never think of fajitas? It only makes sense! I'm going to coin the phrase "fajita" for wine tasting now.

MaskedMarvel


quality posts: 11 Private Messages MaskedMarvel
themostrighteous wrote:...

EDIT ^2: sorry, MM, i couldn't resist jumping in after all!



Glad you did. You articulated what I'm really hoping will be my experience.

Wine tasting book will be here on the 3rd. I'll have my tasting (and rating) notebook set up by then (a blend of what I think RPM uses and CT). Should be a heckuva month of wine learning for me!


Also - If you have a Total Wine near you, they have a sizable complimentary book that covers many varietals I recommend to everyone at my level in the process. It's definitely a free version of Wine For Giraffes (slash catalog), but was a good reference for me on a few varietals I wasn't familiar with, etc etc...

themostrighteous


quality posts: 12 Private Messages themostrighteous
clayfu wrote:=O.
Question for anyone.

When i smell green peppers + black pepper + earth in my wine, why do i never think of fajitas? It only makes sense! I'm going to coin the phrase "fajita" for wine tasting now.


say it isn't so: you sound like Gary Vaynerchuk! somewhere in the world, RP just rolled his eyes in disbelief - and rpm just rolled his eyes at my reference to RP!

btw, i'm assuming that the phrase you want to coin is "vegetarian fajita", b/c you are missing quite a few aromatic descriptors if you are referring to a carnitas / chicken / fish / shrimp / steak fajita!

do you know... what biodynamics is?

Loweeel


quality posts: 5 Private Messages Loweeel
MaskedMarvel wrote:Glad you did. You articulated what I'm really hoping will be my experience.

Wine tasting book will be here on the 3rd. I'll have my tasting (and rating) notebook set up by then (a blend of what I think RPM uses and CT). Should be a heckuva month of wine learning for me!


Also - If you have a Total Wine near you, they have a sizable complimentary book that covers many varietals I recommend to everyone at my level in the process. It's definitely a free version of Wine For Giraffes (slash catalog), but was a good reference for me on a few varietals I wasn't familiar with, etc etc...


It's great, but its accuracy is pretty questionable in a number of areas. Look at what it says about PS! 5 seconds on google would prove them wrong.

Favorites: Roessler ¬ KRPN ¬ Etude ¬ Stuart ¬ KRPort ¬ Tøøthstejnn ¬ Titus ¬ URSA ¬ InZin ¬ SBMystery ¬ SxBS&Z+4 ¬ DC3&4 ¬ TyC3&FB ¬ FeEquus ¬ PSPS ¬ Harvey ¬ SBRes&CR ¬ Corison ¬ Noceto ¬ Humbug ¬ KRSEXY3SOME ¬ PoiZin06 ¬ POLY ¬ Castoro ¬ SBCab ¬ KRPS2K ¬ HW12 ¬ GSaké ¬ הגפןCab ¬ PepBr

CT ¬ PSychos' Path
"The one difference between me and Petite Sirah is that I don't have a dumb period." - YT

crusaderRabbit


quality posts: 0 Private Messages crusaderRabbit
ERMD wrote:I like to experience wine myself, not analyze. Let me explain. MM, I believe you are in music. So if you listen in concert BB King, Eric Clapton or even a local garage band, can you REALLY enjoy the music or is it just second nature to be able to pick up that 1 missed note or off place chord? Does it become more like work. That is why I dont go for the descriptors in wine. I like the experience. Sitting with a friend in Paso eating local food or maybe Rhone area of France.

I guess what I'm getting at is dont let it become a necessity to analyze, but enjoy



hmmm.
I think this comparison to music is Exactly Why I am interested in wine. I can't listen to music without pulling it apart to see how it ticks. Why can Beethoven put together a symphony that revolves on 4 notes?? And Tchaikovsky experimenting with live cannon??
Listening to Tchaikovsky played by the high school orchestra one day I heard the triangle - and had an AHA moment. Drinking the Wellington Cuvee R Syrah I tasted "snail trail" and had an AHA moment.

Lurking over all the posts in this forum gives me definitions that allow me to dissemble tastes in wine and enjoy them all the more.

Thanks everyone.

Wine and Sailing: mother nature's conversation with man.

iByron


quality posts: 40 Private Messages iByron
ERMD wrote:I like to experience wine myself, not analyze. Let me explain. MM, I believe you are in music. So if you listen in concert BB King, Eric Clapton or even a local garage band, can you REALLY enjoy the music or is it just second nature to be able to pick up that 1 missed note or off place chord? Does it become more like work. That is why I dont go for the descriptors in wine. I like the experience. Sitting with a friend in Paso eating local food or maybe Rhone area of France.

I guess what I'm getting at is dont let it become a necessity to analyze, but enjoy



Why did someone have to bring up a musical analogy.

James Blacking's "How Musical is Man?" which I read years ago, and Daniel Levitin's "This is Your Brain on Music" which I'm in the process of reading now both posit the same idea: that musicality is innate in man.

"Musicality" is not the same thing as technical facility and virtuosity in a specific instrument or voice. Everyone has the ability to identify music (even when they've never heard it before), to articulate which musics (styles, songs, genres, etc.) they like (and don't like), to discern good examples of a type of music performance from bad examples, and to talk with some degree of intelligence about all of it. That ability is musicality.

They also suggest that the reason we have some level of musicality is because music is integral to our cultures and we -- and here I mean all of humankind, as no human society has ever existed without some form of music -- are surrounded by it from the get go. Our mothers lull us to sleep as babies. As children we play ring games. We attend religious services. We encounter street vendors and ice cream trucks. We participate in parties, weddings, festivals and parades. We honor dignitaries. We watch movies and plays. We send soldiers off to war. We memorialize the dead. We do all of that with some form of music.

The fact that we are basically immersed in music gives us all the ability to appreciate and talk about music. Those who choose to study in more depth by mastering an instrument or composition or some aspect of music history or theory do not lose any enjoyment (the enjoyment is what makes them want to study it), but simply position themselves to talk at a higher level with other people who can also talk at that high level. That's all. If someone messes up your favorite tune or a record you're dancing to skips a beat, you'll know it just a surely as if you had a DMA.

The same holds for wine appreciation, except we're not immersed in wine as we are music.** If you have voluntarily chosen to immerse yourself to whatever degree in oenophila you're replicating what we all experience in music, only by choice with wine. Continuing that immersion is what will get one to the degree of wine appreciation one desires.

And don't try to get away with pooh-poohing analysis as if it's somehow a contrary force to enjoyment. Enjoyment is all analysis whether we want to admit it or not. "I like this," and "I don't like that," are statements that are the direct result of low level analysis. That you suggest actually being in Paso Robles or the Rhône would give you an enhanced experience means you've done some higher level of analysis even if unconscious.

iByron
(okay, no more musical analogies tonight)

**And that could be a good thing...my clothes would be really hard to clean if I were constantly immersed in wine.

iByron's iCellar (I'm a reciprocal CT Cellar Buddy)

Your Private WIneaux

jwhite6114


quality posts: 119 Private Messages jwhite6114
iByron wrote:Why did someone have to bring up a musical analogy.

James Blacking's "How Musical is Man?" which I read years ago, and Daniel Levitin's "This is Your Brain on Music" which I'm in the process of reading now both posit the same idea: that musicality is innate in man.

"Musicality" is not the same thing as technical facility and virtuosity in a specific instrument or voice. Everyone has the ability to identify music (even when they've never heard it before), to articulate which musics (styles, songs, genres, etc.) they like (and don't like), to discern good examples of a type of music performance from bad examples, and to talk with some degree of intelligence about all of it. That ability is musicality.

They also suggest that the reason we have some level of musicality is because music is integral to our cultures and we -- and here I mean all of humankind, as no human society has ever existed without some form of music -- are surrounded by it from the get go. Our mothers lull us to sleep as babies. As children we play ring games. We attend religious services. We encounter street vendors and ice cream trucks. We participate in parties, weddings, festivals and parades. We honor dignitaries. We watch movies and plays. We send soldiers off to war. We memorialize the dead. We do all of that with some form of music.

The fact that we are basically immersed in music gives us all the ability to appreciate and talk about music. Those who choose to study in more depth by mastering an instrument or composition or some aspect of music history or theory do not lose any enjoyment (the enjoyment is what makes them want to study it), but simply position themselves to talk at a higher level with other people who can also talk at that high level. That's all. If someone messes up your favorite tune or a record you're dancing to skips a beat, you'll know it just a surely as if you had a DMA.

The same holds for wine appreciation, except we're not immersed in wine as we are music.** If you have voluntarily chosen to immerse yourself to whatever degree in oenophila you're replicating what we all experience in music, only by choice with wine. Continuing that immersion is what will get one to the degree of wine appreciation one desires.

And don't try to get away with pooh-poohing analysis as if it's somehow a contrary force to enjoyment. Enjoyment is all analysis whether we want to admit it or not. "I like this," and "I don't like that," are statements that are the direct result of low level analysis. That you suggest actually being in Paso Robles or the Rhône would give you an enhanced experience means you've done some higher level of analysis even if unconscious.

iByron
(okay, no more musical analogies tonight)

**And that could be a good thing...my clothes would be really hard to clean if I were constantly immersed in wine.



I do not disagree with your statements on music -- after all, we do seem to be inclined to make and listen to music pretty naturally; and culturally it is fairly omnipresent.

However, not all "immersion" for pleasure is done to the same degree. You may enjoy baseball, but not enjoy memorizing stats, probabilities, etc. You may enjoy riding roller coasters, but only once in a while. You may enjoy music but not give a rat's derriere about who sing it, let alone who wrote, produced, and recorded it; what technical styles are represented; or how technically skillful a song may be.

I agree with you that analysis does not diminish enjoyment, but that is not the same as analysis is enjoyable to everyone.

CT | | | | | |

jwhite6114


quality posts: 119 Private Messages jwhite6114

So for posterity's sake, what is the professional meanining of "a cat died in my mouth"?

And what does it mean when a wine is described as"tobacco leaf, cedar, and cigar box"? Isn't the last term being redundant?

CT | | | | | |

sanity


quality posts: 5 Private Messages sanity

MM, thanks for starting an interesting thread, which I've been following. I'd like to chime in with a few thoughts, and a tangential question.

I agree that learning about wine is most beneficial and rewarding done with others. It's not an either/or situation in my opinion, re tasting with or without knowledgeable people. I think one may learn quite a bit, even if the others with whom you're tasting are wine-illiterate, just by virtue of having several bottles open to taste and compare, as opposed to drinking alone, at a meal, where most likely one bottle will be open to taste. My husband travels 4-5 days every week, so I often drink alone, having wine with dinner. I take very detailed notes, especially when I'm on my own, because I don't have anyone with which to share ideas.

I enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts, especially the analogies to their areas of interest, and I'd like to add my own. For many years I was an interior decorator (I decorated finished spaces, as opposed to designing the space.).The more practiced I became at my craft, the better I became at being able to create spaces not to my taste. Some decorators will only do one style over and over; others will attempt to work with different styles, and not succeed. One of my strengths became the ability to decorate in almost any style, and do it well, even though it was not to my taste. If a client wanted the living room done in country blue and pink with ruffles everywhere, the finished product would be within her budget, well balanced and pleasing to the eye. The $1000 room would not look as detailed and nuanced as the $5000 room.

I taste and judge wine with the caveat of knowing what the wine costs, and what I may discern were the intentions of the winemaker, and my own intentions for the wine: every day drinker, back porch sipper in 110 degree heat, weekend dinner (a little more special), fancy occasion, etc. I’m not going to compare Corison Cab (passionate, sophisticated, elegant), made from the heart and soul, to the Rock Hollow Cab (easy-going, straightforward, a bit gauche on the finish), made and marketed specifically as a profit center for the winery and restaurants to which they sell, as stated here. To me, they are apples and oranges even though they are from the same varietal. Some days I’ll take the juicy, greasy burger over the prime rib!

I did not get that iByron was saying analysis is enjoyable to everyone, but I understood him to mean that we all analyze, enjoyment is a product of analysis, and we can enjoy the process if we choose to. In my opinion, we take in countless impressions, continuously, and we choose, whether we’re aware or not, to what we pay attention, and then we give that value.

Now, my question, and it may seem odd, and I’ve wanted to post it before: physically, how does one taste? How is it most beneficial to take the wine into one’s mouth, and one then does what, to get the most out of the wine, especially in regards to discerning different tastes? I have extremely sensitive senses of smell and taste, and notice that I don’t use all of my taste buds, especially with drinking wine, otherwise I wouldn’t like anything. To keep flavors balanced for me, or to lessen an unpleasant taste, I’ll take food into my mouth a certain way (and no, I don’t mean by holding my nose…llo!) rpm, your Notes on Wine is a fantastic post, and should be required reading for all wine wooters. As I read, I kept thinking about how to taste, so I may get the most out of what to taste.

MaskedMarvel


quality posts: 11 Private Messages MaskedMarvel

I'm actually thinking of bagging my bottles and doing a "blind" taste as I go from the cellar. Make notes, guess the varietal, so forth. Only after the first glass do I reveal the subject. Might make for another dimension in the experience. Avoiding the printed cork will be an adventure...

Of course, I'll need a great deal on 50+ wine bags to do it...

Loweeel


quality posts: 5 Private Messages Loweeel
jwhite6114 wrote:So for posterity's sake, what is the professional meanining of "a cat died in my mouth"?

And what does it mean when a wine is described as"tobacco leaf, cedar, and cigar box"? Isn't the last term being redundant?


Compare an actual tobacco leaf to a cigar. There's a lot of overlap, but there is some differentiation.

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rpm


quality posts: 175 Private Messages rpm
sanity wrote:
Now, my question, and it may seem odd, and I’ve wanted to post it before: physically, how does one taste? How is it most beneficial to take the wine into one’s mouth, and one then does what, to get the most out of the wine, especially in regards to discerning different tastes? I have extremely sensitive senses of smell and taste, and notice that I don’t use all of my taste buds, especially with drinking wine, otherwise I wouldn’t like anything. To keep flavors balanced for me, or to lessen an unpleasant taste, I’ll take food into my mouth a certain way (and no, I don’t mean by holding my nose…llo!) rpm, your Notes on Wine is a fantastic post, and should be required reading for all wine wooters. As I read, I kept thinking about how to taste, so I may get the most out of what to taste.



Glad you liked my Notes on Wine. They're pretty long in the tooth, but people continue to tell me they're helpful, so, I posted them.

See my post up the thread, which describes pretty much how I taste. The first sip I take is pretty small, perhaps something less than a teaspoon full, but I've never actually measured it. Practice varying amounts until you get the hang of it.

What you want is a sip small enough that when you first take it into your mouth it's only on the front 1/3 of your tongue or so (the "entry"), so you can discern the immediate flavors. You get a lot of aroma in that as well. Then I suck air in over the top of the bit of wine and spread it across my tongue and then let it fill my mouth to sample the middle palate for flavors, astringency, bitterness, viscosity (fullness), alcohol, etc. Then (if tasting seriously) I spit (swallow if not) most of the wine out, retaining only enough that it's just enough when I swallow that I can assess the length, smoothness, bitterness, etc. of the aftertaste ("finish").

If you have sensitive taste buds, you'll recognize that what's going on is to taste with different taste buds as the wine moves through your mouth -- so you can concentrate on each area -- rather than have all of your taste buds engaged at once.

I'm sure more serious and professional tasters can describe the process better, and/or perhaps do it differently, but this is the way I've been tasting for better than 50 years.

Wine-tasting in 8 words:
Pull lots of corks!
Remember what you taste!

sanity


quality posts: 5 Private Messages sanity
rpm wrote:Glad you liked my Notes on Wine. They're pretty long in the tooth, but people continue to tell me they're helpful, so, I posted them.

See my post up the thread, which describes pretty much how I taste. The first sip I take is pretty small, perhaps something less than a teaspoon full, but I've never actually measured it. Practice varying amounts until you get the hang of it. .........



This helps, thank you. Even when I am drinking wine for pleasure, I take small sips. I aerate the wine through my nose (directing the breath in from my nose to the front of my mouth), not through my mouth, which keeps the aroma more concentrated, I think.

Governing thought says the different tastes are found in all areas of the tongue; I find personally that certain tastes are more concentrated in certain areas, but that may be due to the fact that I am conscious of integrating my sense of smell with my sense of taste, and do so with out much thought.

Also, and MM, if we're getting too far off topic, please let me know, we may always start another thread - what about that salty taste in many, mostly less expensive, white wines? Is it sulphites? I was reading recently that some wineries will purposefully add sulphites; yikes! why? (besides for preservation)

MaskedMarvel


quality posts: 11 Private Messages MaskedMarvel
sanity wrote:This helps, thank you. ...<snip>...

Also, and MM, if we're getting too far off topic, please let me know, we may always start another thread.. (besides for preservation)



Actually - this is exactly what i was looking for. Advise on how to taste, and what to do when tasting. Thanks!

RPM - I just opened a 2004 Kenwood Cab and tasted it per your post above. I'm shocked at the difference between this taste and my usual experience with this bottle. Very helpful! I'm inclined to adjust my tasting to your style now. While I'm looking for the whole mouth experience, as is Sanity, this truly did offer a new layer of the experience to me.

I wanted to add what i think is a very quirky tasting ritual when I open a bottle for myself that I've never heard mentioned. RIGHT after popping the cork, I sniff the inside of the neck. I want to get an immediate impression, literally imagining I can smell the air of the winery as the wine was bottled some years ago. I know it's probably infantile and dramatic, but I imagine being there and breathing the air as the cork goes in. I also feel it gives me the truest experience of the growth of the wine from start to finish.

When I taste more seriously, I usually make a lot more noise, also. Air was taught to me at a young age to be the most important factor in drinking wine, and when seriously tasting, I bubble, swish, chew, and roll. I love it when it works with what I'm drinking and can almost tell right away how the bottle is going to mature after opening from the first inhalation.

rpm


quality posts: 175 Private Messages rpm
sanity wrote:This helps, thank you. Even when I am drinking wine for pleasure, I take small sips. I aerate the wine through my nose (directing the breath in from my nose to the front of my mouth), not through my mouth, which keeps the aroma more concentrated, I think.

Governing thought says the different tastes are found in all areas of the tongue; I find personally that certain tastes are more concentrated in certain areas, but that may be due to the fact that I am conscious of integrating my sense of smell with my sense of taste, and do so with out much thought.

Also, and MM, if we're getting too far off topic, please let me know, we may always start another thread - what about that salty taste in many, mostly less expensive, white wines? Is it sulphites? I was reading recently that some wineries will purposefully add sulphites; yikes! why? (besides for preservation)



1. This is only for "evaluative" sips when first tasting. When I'm actually drinking a glass of wine after I've tasted it, I take bigger sips (but still pretty small) and get the 'whole mouth' feel and taste.

2. Try the mouth aeration. It makes a big difference. Nose aeration doesn't put the air through the wine in the right way. I've tried it (as a brass player, I was practicing circular breathing and thought it might be interesting to try with wine tasting. It wasn't.

Funny thing, I've always done it, and was always surprised some other people didn't. (You can imagine the reaction I got at my first college party when I reflexively did a tasting sip on a cup of Red Mountain "burgundy"....)

Wine-tasting in 8 words:
Pull lots of corks!
Remember what you taste!