Wine.Woot : One Week, One Wine (SM)

andyduncan wrote:I'm guessing he's referring to those winemakers that, regardless of legality, put a fictitiously low number on their bottle knowing that the true number would scare too many people away, and that the enforcement of such numbers has been exceedingly lax.

Hmmmm. You mean the one who cheat to stay in the lower tax classification? Or the ones with alcohols in the high 15s or more who claim to be at most low 14s?

There's always been a little of both around, but I don't think it ever predominated, at least historically. I suspect it may also be more a phenomenon of the smaller producers, who don't have the labs or the 'corporate' worry about avoiding crossing BATF -- perhaps a holdover from Prohibition and the early Repeal days when they were often exceptionally difficult to deal with. Lax enforcement would certainly encourage more noncompliance.

I'm a fan of requiring detailed information to be available, if not actually on the label: I think one should be able to know not just the alcohol, but the Brix at which the grapes were harvested (could be tough with blends and bulk wine, but....), the pH, TA and residual sugar.

I must be too old and too far away from the cellar, but I have difficulty with the notion that a wine at 16.2% is not 'hot' because it's integrated after 20 months in barrel.

Petite Sirah and Syrah have historically received extended barrel aging, and 20 months is hardly excessive for the variety. Aging in cask, barrel and bottle were all far more extensive pre-Prohibition, as you know from the tour information.

And, I think that customers are entitled to be scared away if they don't like the alcohol numbers. The more I think about it, I guess I have a real problem with the notion of intentionally understating (or overstating) the alcohol level of a wine. Of course, that's in part because I almost never find wines much above 14% which I believe to be well balanced or ageworthy....

rpm wrote:Hmmmm. You mean the one who cheat to stay in the lower tax classification? Or the ones with alcohols in the high 15s or more who claim to be at most low 14s?

The latter. I think the ATF needs to start doing spot checks on bottles. What's JWhite's favorite quote about the winemaker who stamped 15% on his prize bottle? "If I said anything less than 17%, I was lying" ?

I will say, though, there are still lots of people who love big, ripe, glycerine-y wines, and don't really care what the alcohol % is. About 50% of my wine drinking friends, if not more would probably love this wine until you told them what the alcohol percentage was. I think Pencilthief is going to get these for Mrs. Pencilthief simply because she loves that HBO show so much. Plus, if it doesn't work as a table wine, she loves port :-)

For myself, it's not the alcohol that bothers me, it's the associated flavor profiles that I find tend to come with high brix/alcohol wines. I'm interested in the other two listed here, those are the lowest numbers I've seen in a long time for a Paso Wine.

andyduncan wrote:The latter. I think the ATF needs to start doing spot checks on bottles. What's JWhite's favorite quote about the winemaker who stamped 15% on his prize bottle? "If I said anything less than 17%, I was lying" ?

I will say, though, there are still lots of people who love big, ripe, glycerine-y wines, and don't really care what the alcohol % is. About 50% of my wine drinking friends, if not more would probably love this wine until you told them what the alcohol percentage was. I think Pencilthief is going to get these for Mrs. Pencilthief simply because she loves that HBO show so much. Plus, if it doesn't work as a table wine, she loves port :-)

For myself, it's not the alcohol that bothers me, it's the associated flavor profiles that I find tend to come with high brix/alcohol wines. I'm interested in the other two listed here, those are the lowest numbers I've seen in a long time for a Paso Wine.

I agree that it's not the alcohol per se in many cases, but the entire flavor profile. However, I consider the noticeable taste of alcohol, where it starts to taste like an overly strong mixed drink, to be a definite flaw which would relegate a wine to at best a "below standard" or "commercially acceptable with noticeable defects" (range 9-12 out of 20), with a fair chance at coming in at "unacceptable."

rpm wrote:I agree that it's not the alcohol per se in many cases, but the entire flavor profile. However, I consider the noticeable taste of alcohol, where it starts to taste like an overly strong mixed drink, to be a definite flaw which would relegate a wine to at best a "below standard" or "commercially acceptable with noticeable defects" (range 9-12 out of 20), with a fair chance at coming in at "unacceptable."

I've had several bottles of Trueblood Syrah, and I can say that the wine is perfectly balanced; the alcohol does not come into play. So, one does not taste the alcohol, even though it is 16.2%

mmachat wrote:I've had several bottles of Trueblood Syrah, and I can say that the wine is perfectly balanced; the alcohol does not come into play. So, one does not taste the alcohol, even though it is 16.2%

Fair enough. I'm guessing it's on the more ripe, lush, concentrated, "hedonistic" side of things to provide that balance?

With the other two, assuming they're both dry, are their 13.4% and 13.8% alc levels in line with their harvest brix or have they been adjusted?

mmachat wrote:I've had several bottles of Trueblood Syrah, and I can say that the wine is perfectly balanced; the alcohol does not come into play. So, one does not taste the alcohol, even though it is 16.2%

Okaaay. It's possible you don't taste alcohol in it. What exactly do you taste?

In order to understand the context in which you taste (that is to say, your taste history and taste memory) and how to relate what you taste to what I or others taste, what wines do you usually taste and like, and how long/how much have you been tasting wine? Have you had any guidance or training in understanding wine?

Note, I'm not asking to intimidate or to set up a put down (just about everyone on the board knows I've been tasting longer than many current winemakers have been alive, and longer than at least 80% of the vines now in production have been bearing), I'm sincerely trying to understand where you're coming from, because the result you report seems so counterintuitive to me based on my own experience.

rpm wrote:Okaaay. It's possible you don't taste alcohol in it. What exactly do you taste?

In order to understand the context in which you taste (that is to say, your taste history and taste memory) and how to relate what you taste to what I or others taste, what wines do you usually taste and like, and how long/how much have you been tasting wine? Have you had any guidance or training in understanding wine?

Note, I'm not asking to intimidate or to set up a put down (just about everyone on the board knows I've been tasting longer than many current winemakers have been alive, and longer than at least 80% of the vines now in production have been bearing), I'm sincerely trying to understand where you're coming from, because the result you report seems so counterintuitive to me based on my own experience.

Hi RPM, I'm Stuart the winemaker on the Trueblood. My background is pretty deep: Davis then work at Cakebread, Neyers and Quintessa. I have also sold wine wholesale, as well as being wine buyer at Dean & Deluca and vintage 1870. I currently make wine for a few small clients, and bar-tend 2 nights a week at the Oxbow market in Napa. In short I have a California palate. My work with Ehren Jordan from Turley and Neyers was my education in High alcohol wines. The Trueblood is certainly a big hedonistic wine and the alcohol is high, but the density and richness in the wine prevail. Its certainly no shrinking violet, but there is more balance than you would expect from a high alcohol wine.

Has anyone tried decanting with the Soiree Decanter? The website is winesoiree.com and all ive seen are reviews by the company itself and another by some classic wine company so I'm not to sure about it yet.
Otherwise any idea on how long a wine should be decanted? I'm fairly certain it depends on the wine but suggestions are nice

zergoholic wrote:Has anyone tried decanting with the Soiree Decanter? The website is winesoiree.com and all ive seen are reviews by the company itself and another by some classic wine company so I'm not to sure about it yet.
Otherwise any idea on how long a wine should be decanted? I'm fairly certain it depends on the wine but suggestions are nice

No. However, watching the video, it just looks like it allows air to come in contact with more wine than a normal pour, although doesn't allow that air to affect the wine for very long since it goes into your glass, etc. Normal decanting is almost surely better.

And as you said, it depends on the wine. The best thing to do is taste every few minutes to see what's going on with it. When it's good, drink up! A horribly inaccurate (due to the inability to predict wine) would be 30 minutes -- an hour for zins, cabs (not huge tannic ones mind you), syrahs, etc. and then for huge cabs, PS, etc., two -- three hours.

kylemittskus wrote:No. However, watching the video, it just looks like it allows air to come in contact with more wine than a normal pour, although doesn't allow that air to affect the wine for very long since it goes into your glass, etc. Normal decanting is almost surely better.

And as you said, it depends on the wine. The best thing to do is taste every few minutes to see what's going on with it. When it's good, drink up! A horribly inaccurate (due to the inability to predict wine) would be 30 minutes -- an hour for zins, cabs (not huge tannic ones mind you), syrahs, etc. and then for huge cabs, PS, etc., two -- three hours.

Ah yes that helps me a lot, especially with a direction for further investigation of my own Thanks!

winestuart wrote:Hi RPM, I'm Stuart the winemaker on the Trueblood. My background is pretty deep: Davis then work at Cakebread, Neyers and Quintessa. I have also sold wine wholesale, as well as being wine buyer at Dean & Deluca and vintage 1870. I currently make wine for a few small clients, and bar-tend 2 nights a week at the Oxbow market in Napa. In short I have a California palate. My work with Ehren Jordan from Turley and Neyers was my education in High alcohol wines. The Trueblood is certainly a big hedonistic wine and the alcohol is high, but the density and richness in the wine prevail. Its certainly no shrinking violet, but there is more balance than you would expect from a high alcohol wine.

Thanks for the follow-up. My palate is much more a traditional (you might say old-fashioned) California palate, with a strong overlay of classical Bordeaux: I cut my teeth on Inglenook, BV, and Martini (and sometimes Krug) Cabs, Zins and other varietals from the '40s and '50s vintages, along with lots of good more generic reds from Sonoma County, with much more extensive tasting from the '60s vintages on. Early tasting was with my great uncles who were enologists (Conegliano graduates pre 1900) and my grandfather, from whose cellar I tasted classified Bordeaux.

One cannot even begin to keep up as an amateur any more. I tend to like wines with the grapes harvested at lower Brix, with alcohol much closer to 13.5% and low pH. If I have a single vintage in general memory that I hold as a model (leaving aside the 1941s, which almost no one has tasted anymore, so it's not helpful as a benchmark), it would be 1970, perhaps followed by 1973 (which has held up much better than 1974) or 1978. Those were ripe wines, but not overripe and not excessively high in alcohol.

rpm wrote:Hmmmm. You mean the one who cheat to stay in the lower tax classification? Or the ones with alcohols in the high 15s or more who claim to be at most low 14s?

There's always been a little of both around, but I don't think it ever predominated, at least historically. I suspect it may also be more a phenomenon of the smaller producers, who don't have the labs or the 'corporate' worry about avoiding crossing BATF -- perhaps a holdover from Prohibition and the early Repeal days when they were often exceptionally difficult to deal with. Lax enforcement would certainly encourage more noncompliance.

I'm a fan of requiring detailed information to be available, if not actually on the label: I think one should be able to know not just the alcohol, but the Brix at which the grapes were harvested (could be tough with blends and bulk wine, but....), the pH, TA and residual sugar.

I must be too old and too far away from the cellar, but I have difficulty with the notion that a wine at 16.2% is not 'hot' because it's integrated after 20 months in barrel.

Petite Sirah and Syrah have historically received extended barrel aging, and 20 months is hardly excessive for the variety. Aging in cask, barrel and bottle were all far more extensive pre-Prohibition, as you know from the tour information.

And, I think that customers are entitled to be scared away if they don't like the alcohol numbers. The more I think about it, I guess I have a real problem with the notion of intentionally understating (or overstating) the alcohol level of a wine. Of course, that's in part because I almost never find wines much above 14% which I believe to be well balanced or ageworthy....

A very popular "98 pt WS" pinot in 2004 was individually lab tested to be 18.6% alcohol. ROFL! That being said I recently had a 16.1% GSM that didn't have a touch of alcohol on the palate (but there was some heat on the nose)

winestuart wrote:Hi RPM, I'm Stuart the winemaker on the Trueblood. My background is pretty deep: Davis then work at Cakebread, Neyers and Quintessa. I have also sold wine wholesale, as well as being wine buyer at Dean & Deluca and vintage 1870. I currently make wine for a few small clients, and bar-tend 2 nights a week at the Oxbow market in Napa. In short I have a California palate. My work with Ehren Jordan from Turley and Neyers was my education in High alcohol wines. The Trueblood is certainly a big hedonistic wine and the alcohol is high, but the density and richness in the wine prevail. Its certainly no shrinking violet, but there is more balance than you would expect from a high alcohol wine.

were you working at Quintessa when Aaron P and Roy P were there?

rpm wrote:Very interesting review, especially since the statistics listed on the wine do not suggest such high alcohol. From your description, my first inclination would be to ask whether (a substantial portion of) the grapes came from young vineyards, perhaps put into production ahead of their time.

The Syrah at 16.2% alcohol is well beyond what I would ever consider as a table wine. That's well into the territory of some of the late harvest Zins of the late 1970s, heading towards port territory. I wonder what the residual sugar is.

Looks like another offering "for them what likes the style"....

Well, it was hot on the nose in a typical way, but the alcohol taste on the palate was NOT an EtOH note - it was distinctly isopropyl! I'm sort of a chemist (long story), and I have extensive experience with different types of alcohols as well as an excellent scent memory.

I'm not like you in that I'm sensitive to or wary of high EtOH by % wine; for me, it varies dramatically based on the other notes present. So high EtOH doesn't make something undrinkable for me, and it is often present in 'big' Napa Cabs and Petite Sirah as well as many Zins, and I it doesn't bother me at all in such cases, provided the wine is good overall of course.

I don't think I'm overly sensitive to EtOH on the palate. When I was in college, a group of sorority girls spiked my Pinot Grigio glass - every single glass and I drank the whole bottle - with mid-range vokda and I didn't notice a thing. I was recently at an event where I asked for someone to put a shot of vodka in my half glass of white wine, and there, even knowing it had vodka, I found it very drinkable. But, I also like vodka.

I AM very sensitive to EtOH content in the nose. If something's hot, my nose knows. But my palate is a dullard in comparison.

Also, I rarely rate wines in 70s. I also rarely rate in the 90s.

I tried the Vampire Cabernet Sauvignon last week and thought it was horrible.

I had the vampire cab sauv last year, it was pretty good but 45 bucks for 3 bottles is really overpriced. Wait until after Halloween and get it on clearance for 5$/bottle. I bought 3 cases this way last year.

I see this stuff at local grocery stores and Cost Plus all the time. Not sure about price comparison, but it's not something hard to find. I'd figure it's produced in fairly large quantities as well.

Participation in the last offer from Vampire was sub-par.

Definite pass for me.

Re: high alcohol, 16%+ will be noticeable. Even if it's not "hot" it will affect the flavor and mouthfeel, IMHO.

clayfu wrote:were you working at Quintessa when Aaron P and Roy P were there?

I was at Quintessa, the first year the winery was built, 2002. The winemaker was Sarah Gott with Philipe Melka. It was a tough harvest as the building was still under construction and there was no water on the rooftop crush pad.

Just found their facebook page:

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/VAMPIRECOM/76879678429?ref=ts

Going to order a set. My neighbor loves them!

INTLGerard wrote:It is safe to say that everyone's palate is unique and some are more sensitive to alcohol levels than others.
~content snipped for space~
Everyone has their own personal taste with wine which is constantly evolving and it's great to know there is something out there for everyone. Happy Halloween!

Well said, and a great perspective. So this is one of the reasons you are a WW moderator. To each his/her own- eh? Thx for chimin' in.
;)

today's haiku ...

my benevolence
leaves all the trendy labels
for your enjoyment

Clue, please?

JOATMON wrote:Clue, please?

Oh! I totally forgot we get something new tonight.

FWIW, I posted my labrat report on the Poizin just now even though it's already sold out.

In short, if you enjoyed the 2006, I think you'll enjoy the 2007 as I found them to be fairly similar. Again, fruit forward, high alcohol zin that does it better in this price range than others that I've tried (albeit fairly limited in my experience).

Now back as you were...